Hey Peeps,
In the midst of our current wave of bitching and barking a couple of things happened that made me think...
First, Josh posted that he and I were cool because in the Mexicans thread we had disagreed radically, and eventually agreed to differ, but without name-calling and insulting each other. Personally I remember there was a choice point, where I wanted to type some rude name, but decided not to, and I'm glad I didn't because his next response made me understand him better, even though I still didn't agree with him even one tiny little bit.
Second, Goddess and I had a conversation about whether or not we could be friends, given that we disagree over a LOT. We concluded that maybe friends don't have to agree on everything; they just need to be prepared to hear the other and respect their voice.
I think if I can only be friends with people who totally think like I do, then I am just plain intolerant and no better than those fundamentalists and neo-con right wingers I profess to despise. But it's a huge challenge to be friends with someone whose values are profoundly different from mine, especially if their values actually infringe on mine.
For example, I have a couple of moderate muslim women friends, and our VALUES are very similar, even though our BELIEFS are different and our OPINIONS on how to achieve the vision of a better world we have in common may be different. But I have a harder time with an evangelical Christian friend of mine, because his values are different and even infringe on mine in the area of reproductive rights and women's role in society.
So, what do you think about how to relate with people whose values, beliefs and opinions are different? People who sometimes rile you up and make you mad. People who you might think hold dangerously wrong assumptions. People you just know are "wrong"!! Can you like them and disagree? Do you try to persuade them they're wrong (which of course, they are, dammit!) At what point do you think, "This is over, I can't be around this person"? And the rest...
In the midst of our current wave of bitching and barking a couple of things happened that made me think...
First, Josh posted that he and I were cool because in the Mexicans thread we had disagreed radically, and eventually agreed to differ, but without name-calling and insulting each other. Personally I remember there was a choice point, where I wanted to type some rude name, but decided not to, and I'm glad I didn't because his next response made me understand him better, even though I still didn't agree with him even one tiny little bit.
Second, Goddess and I had a conversation about whether or not we could be friends, given that we disagree over a LOT. We concluded that maybe friends don't have to agree on everything; they just need to be prepared to hear the other and respect their voice.
I think if I can only be friends with people who totally think like I do, then I am just plain intolerant and no better than those fundamentalists and neo-con right wingers I profess to despise. But it's a huge challenge to be friends with someone whose values are profoundly different from mine, especially if their values actually infringe on mine.
For example, I have a couple of moderate muslim women friends, and our VALUES are very similar, even though our BELIEFS are different and our OPINIONS on how to achieve the vision of a better world we have in common may be different. But I have a harder time with an evangelical Christian friend of mine, because his values are different and even infringe on mine in the area of reproductive rights and women's role in society.
So, what do you think about how to relate with people whose values, beliefs and opinions are different? People who sometimes rile you up and make you mad. People who you might think hold dangerously wrong assumptions. People you just know are "wrong"!! Can you like them and disagree? Do you try to persuade them they're wrong (which of course, they are, dammit!) At what point do you think, "This is over, I can't be around this person"? And the rest...
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 4:16 PMi have learned more from people that i disagree with than people that i agree with. so, i have a profound repsect for people who offer a difference of opinion and can PRESENT that difference without negating others or myself. hence, there is much for me to learn in life. *cheers* -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:17 PMthis is a great question Rachael!
glad you asked it.
and I really like Goddess's reply, especially the line: "i have learned more from people that i disagree with than people that i agree with"
wow,
so true, so true
just doing a mini inventory of my friends and thinking about how different they all are, such a mixture of cultures, beliefs, etc, etc,
ultimately I guess it really does boil down to that RESPECT thing... if you don't have that, it's pretty hard to learn from each other...
I have more thoughts on this topic, but they're not ready to come out of the oven yet...
:)
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:20 PMI say f#*@% em, there's no excuse for being wrong. -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:32 PMHa ha, Brentt, that's cool- but that's just it... is anyone ever WRONG?
i think as we begin to explore the nature of Truth, it becomes clear that there are simply many answers to a single question... and what seem wrong to one- may not be wrong to another... so whose 'right' are we using as a tool for measurement?
Sunny brought up an interesting example of oral tradition and i was a bit touched by it, only because for a long time, there was (and perhaps still is) this Euro-centric view of the world that everyone must adhere to or they are just plain 'wrong' or 'stupid' or 'silly' or 'naive' or 'uneducated' or 'misinformed'- but YET some of those oral traditions tell stories that are rooted in Truth but are sadly dismissed because it doesn't fall under the 'Euro-centric' view of the world. For instance, if i told some people here, that my Dakota grandmother was from the Pliedian star system- the Euro-centric view would immediately dismiss this as fallacy, because it is 'impossible', etc. but yet, the Truth is that she really DID come from the Pliedian Star System, and no she was not human. She was my adopted Dakota grandmother. But i digress....
I suppose that we have to first figure out whose standard or model we need to use as measurement for 'Truth' before we can say 'fuck them, there's no excuse for being wrong'. -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:54 PM" is anyone ever WRONG? "
Of course. Anyone who disagrees with me! Didn't they teach you that in school? -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 7:34 PMI work with kids and we have a philosphy that we never dismiss the person - instead we address the behavior. I am the supervisor of the staff that work with these kids and sometimes they give me the shits and vice versa - same principal applies.... but then our values are mostly similar.......
I must say I find it very difficult to get close to people who have very different values to me - probably cos I think mine are right lol..... But one thing I will do is try not to put a person in a box and keep them there........ I will always give them room to get out of the so called box and change the view I have of them......
I am always prepared to look a little deeper....... I guess that comes from working with kids - I have to :D -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:25 PMI work with kids>>>
Me too. I teach art to severely emotionally disturbed children.
I am linked w/them...
I see their humanity...
their command of the sublime.
I talked to a kid today about what a ...
self fulfilling prophecy is...
and what a preconcieved notion is.
Working w/kids rocks !
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:33 PMand I'd say:
"interesting comment Brentt,
would love to learn more about where you're coming from,"
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:28 PM> I say f#*@% em, there's no excuse for being wrong.
<laughing so hard i spat beer down my nose>
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:12 PMWhat kind of people are conducive to friendships ?>>>
YESSSS !
You have transcended the status quo !
Step outside your experience....
your life will be richer for it.
Eurocentric>>>
I'm tired-o-that crap.
I'll fight it.
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:49 PMRachael,
It's interesting to think about what we tolerate in our friends and family who hold different values from our own.
On the abortion issue, for example, I am able to tolerate people who oppose abortion, because I think their beliefs are genuine. The really believe that a person is being killed when a fetus is aborted.
I do not agree with this viewpoint, AT ALL! But I believe it is heartfelt in those that hold it.
Another issue, the death penalty, leaves me feeling less generous. I believe there is no moral support whatsoever for the state to execute a person. I do not believe a civilized state puts people to death. So it's harder for me to accept these people, because I believe they are uncivilized. As it happens, my boyfriend is one of these people.
To me, it sounds like you're asking, when do you show respect for another's opposing viewpoint, and when do you turn your back/ walk away/ show disrespect? It's tough and irreconcilably subjective. I respect people who oppose abortion. I do not respect people who support the death penalty. But I respect that your judgements on these issues may well differ. -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 8:53 PM<< I do not respect people who support the death penalty. >>
I am so full of bullshit. I know a few really smart people that support the death penalty, and I respect them. But still, I believe there is a vindictiveness and authoritarianism to the death penalty, so when people support it, they lose a little bit of esteem in my eyes.
Civilized people do not support the death penalty. -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:38 PMOK people, this is all very PC and I love you all for being so, "yeah, I totally support people who are different", but what about when it's the Real Thing?
Lemme up the ante here. When I moved to France, I had all these positive ideas about Arabic culture. (This was 1989.) I knew the Arabs had practically invented astronomy and maths and medecine and I wanted to know them better. Then I moved into an area just off the Arab quarter and within a few weeks I was having a very hard time with the experience. My car (an ancient battered little creature worth nothing) was broken into twice a week on average. When I walked down the street the young men would hiss obscenities at me.
I knew (and repeated) all the lefty sociological stuff about how unemployment and disenfranchisement had affected these young men and I really believe that. I still believe that, AND the reality was that they treated me like crap, as a woman. I wanted to yell, "If you don't like it here, in Europe, in my culture, then fuck back off to Algeria and see how you like it there you bastards." It was horrible. I worked on separating their subculture (shaped by their oppression in France) from their race, and their religion, but it was hard not to end up a racist bitch. I made friends with Arab women, but the young men...jeez.
So the point of this story is, how do you remain civil and tolerant to people who are not civil and tolerant to you? Or do you meet them where they are? Does that basically lead to escalating aggression? Can it be useful?
What do YOU do when it just isn't so easy? When someone's difference is IN YOUR FACE? -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:33 PMthat's a good question Rachel... i'll have to ponder upon the meaning behind the question, just a little more- i'm a very 'fuck you' person and interestingly enough, it was Mike (yeah, he doesn't know this yet) who was just running his tangents on another thread and said something that spoke to my soul- although he was probably talking about something completely different- something in it, was about being 'softer'- or at least that was my own perspective- but not his words exactly... so to answer your question, i can't answer it at this moment.
but since that thing that Mike said, i've been thinking about being kinder to my 'perceived' opposition... well.. thinking about it at least.... not sure if i will actually employ a kinder tactic.... much to ponder... -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:40 PMa kinder, gentler Goddess
say it ain't so !! -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:44 PMmmm... something's changing Wild Woman... i think the Supreme Goddess is trying to give me messages... i can still be soft.... ok... let me think...
no
nevermind
ok, fine, i can't be soft but i can be more calm, like a low fire instead of an inferno, you know what i mean- at least that's a step in the right direction.... -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:47 PMi only want you sweet in private..
oh well,
i'll go cry into my iced tea..... -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:50 PMyou must be tired or had too many martini's- but your sweetie is not on this tribe- that was another tribe, remember? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:54 PMhaha..
i heard he was lurking around somewhere..
but he probably dropped it.
he doesn't really like tribes where people take
themselves too seriously... -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:57 PMgood guy. i like him already. (not in THAT way, of course) -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 10:59 PMyeah, THAT's ALL MINE !!!
can i still have a bit of Goddess on the side? -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:03 PMdarlin' there's enough of me to fill up a few star systems... just nibble gently. :-P oh yeah and don't worry- i'm not a man stealer. now Wild Woman, how do YOU deal with people that are all like up all in your grill gettin' on nerves who are just not feelin'? -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:17 PMdepends,
if its me, i have a pretty thick skin
if its a friend, i get ferocious
but mostly i just won't bother with the fuckers..
some differences are just too great -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:22 PMso the size of the difference matters? that's something to think about... i don't think that my differences with Rachael are that great- but there others on this tribe who the differences are FAR TOO great... would i be open to be their friend...
hmmm..
it just depends... maybe... maybe not... i do know that there are some people who i naturally vibe with and others that i kind of vibe with and others where there is NO vibe at all...these are all thought provoking questions... i think i would say that i am definately not open to the 'No Vibe' people. But then again, maybe when i mature a little more... i'll just say 'fuck people' and be done with almost everyone. -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Fri, May 12, 2006 - 11:48 PM"Death Penalty": An eye for an eye and a death for killing another. For rapists: send them to jail for a year and the karma should equal that 1 out, then castrate them, then have them serve out the rest of their sentence that the job gave them.
See, now that is an example of how I am closed minded, as I think they should get what they have given, though in a greater amount, as the prey that they went after never made that request, but the predator did when they committed the crime knowing the end result if they were caught.
+SW-> -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:17 AMThe rule of cool is that if you need to point it out to others how cool you are, then you aren't.
+SW-> -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:33 AM"The rule of cool is that if you need to point it out to others how cool you are, then you aren't."
Lol. I made the joke about Rachel and I being cool because, once again, a thread got hijacked by people who can't set their egos aside. Don't worry, I'm not cool. It's ok.
BUT, I submit to all of you that having a, "rule of cool," is as uncool as telling others how cool you are, thereby negating any potential coolness. ;-) -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 10:07 AMJosh: LMAO as I didn't make the rule, I just referred to one of those rules of cool. Referring to this...."BUT, I submit to all of you that having a, "rule of cool," is as uncool as telling others how cool you are, thereby negating any potential coolness. ;-)"
"a thread got hijacked by people who can't set their egos aside" Sounds like you took a slight "ego" bruise yourself on that thread, along with what I wrote. Perhaps it had to do with your head rising above the clouds and encountering the plane you didn't see flying through? LOL. Have a good one. I am simply messing with you, so don't get too worked up. If I was serious, it would have looked like a trainwreck like I posted on a different thread to another person and I was being kinder than usual on that.
You justy left yourself too open not be messed with a bit, but...it was all in jest on my part.
+SW->
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Unsu...
The Judge Has Spoken
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 10:40 AM> An eye for an eye and a death for killing another.
Yes, aren't these Biblical adages wonderful in the 21st centurty?
If we had no criminal justice system, we would be a barbaric society. Yet no criminal justice system can operate without errors. People are not uncommonly convicted wrongly. Should we just execute these people too? And chalk their state-imposed deaths up to the price that must be paid to support a vengeful society?
And what, you say, of the murderers who we KNOW did the crime? What if we KNOW they're guilty? But how do we know they're guilty? Because evidence was collected illegally? If the police misbehaved in apprehending the suspect and collecting evidence, we let the person go, because otherwise we would be living in a police state. But maybe that appeals to you?
Shadow, I hope you are young because you seem to live in a very black and white world.
Oh, and wasn't it you over in another thread that said someone who writes about gangbangs is a skank? I'll be happy to find your exact words if your memory fails. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Judge Has Spoken
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:25 AMI am FAR from a bible thumper, as I view the bible as "a nice story", but...yeah a gang banger is a skank, though I didn't think I wrote that, though I may have. What's that mean to you Harriet? Yep, you guessed it. I think from your profile and attitude toward that statement that the shoe fits for you. Don't like it? Change your behavior, as I am not likely to change my view of people who can't want a more than 2 guys.
Young? That has nothing to do with it. Age has nothing to do with you having a pass to throw your vagina to whatever guy is foolish enough to dip into it as the last guy. Sloppy seconds???? How much does that speak for a his self esteem if he is willing to dip in after another. Kind of like eating an ice cream cone after GWB has tainted it by eating half and licking the whole of it isn't it? Just plain nasty!
+SW->
P.S. As for death row: few are found innocent after the fact, but .... if they were ACTUALLY caught in the crime...give them an eye for an eye. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Judge Has Spoken
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 11:42 AM<< Sloppy seconds???? How much does that speak for a his self esteem if he is willing to dip in after another. >>
You might be surprised to learn that for many men, the hottest sex they can have is in a gangbang. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's not right for others.
Your attitudes about sex are very negative. You think that one kind of sex is right for everyone, your kind of sex. And people who want something different are skanks. You've never been with a partner that fantasized about gangbangs? Then either you haven't had many partners, or they're not sharing their sexual fantasies with you. -
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suspending judgement
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:19 PMsooo, are we placing bets on whether Harriet and Shadow can be friends or not?
"high five" might be a tall order...
a "truce" perhaps?
ok, I'll go back to minding my own business now,
peace,
:) -
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Unsu...
gangbanging?
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:26 PMYour attitudes about sex are very negative. You think that one kind of sex is right for everyone, your kind of sex. And people who want something different are skanks. You've never been with a partner that fantasized about gangbangs? Then either you haven't had many partners, or they're not sharing their sexual fantasies with you.
You've never been with a partner that fantasized about gangbangs? or they're not sharing their sexual fantasies with you.
I'm sorry maybe i've missread this posting but when I see the words "gangbang" it doesn't bring to mind anything at all anything positive when it comes to a sexual fantasy, and to assume that everyone has these fantasies is wrong, as far as I'm concerned. I've had more than one friend that had been gang raped and it not only ruined them for life emotionally but the fact of the matter is that perhaps you should find better words to express yourself, because I'm going to assume that you didn't mean what you said and I took it out of context.
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Unsu...
Re: gangbanging?
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:38 PM<< I've had more than one friend that had been gang raped >>
There's a big difference between gang rape, which is illegal, and gangbangs, which are not, because they are consensual.
However, many people think of the two things as the same. I believe this is an unenlightened perspective.
A lot of women fantasize about gangbangs. A lot of women fantasize about rape. But they do not want to experience these fantasies in real life. Why not? Danger, for one thing. But why do they need danger in their fantasies, but not in their real life? These questions interest me.
I think the effort to reconcile one's sexual fantasies with one's real life behavior yields a lot of personal and sexual insight and growth. -
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Unsu...
Re: gangbanging?
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:43 PMI would like to take this gangbang discussion over to livejournal. Not that I expect any of you to follow it there; it's just that I'm more interested in what they have to say on the topic than what you guys have to say. As it happens.
Does anyone mind if I quote your comments on gangbangs on livejournal, attributed or not-attributed, as you might prefer?
Shadow, I'm especially interested in citing your comments. Do you object? Somehow I suspect that you will object because you will not want your comments seen by a wider readership.
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Unsu...
Re: gangbanging?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 8:57 AMI don't have an issue with a wider readership, BUT I don't feel ANY desire to join another forum. As it is, it is a stretch for me to find time to keep up with this forum, as I have a life to live off the net. Well, that and I really don't find your opinion worth debating much after reading the whole of the child molest topic you stated elsewhere. I think you need a lot of help, I feel a bit sorry for you, but not enough that I am willing to let your sick comments slide. Others will come to your rescue, especially since you threw out the bi-polar thing, as you having a weakness that needs to be understood. I don't feel like that, as you are living in that disease, accelerating it to a farther level than it needs to be at, just to get off on it. It's sick and a blind man could see it happening in front of them. No, Harriet or whatever pseudo name you choose for today, I won't be an enabler to you and your games. YES, I do mind if you quote me directly on anywhere other than here, not due to the readership, but due to the fact that I have no need to go to that forum and see my words twisted and not defending my position on why I view things the way I do. As for the "gangbang" thing. It is a need to fill a void sexually, that you won't try to fill in healthier fashion without the health risks. 1 person lies about a venereal disease in that situation, skips on "safe sex" and how many people have that disease after the fact? Do the old shampoo commercial on that where things keep expanding and it gives an idea of why herpes, itself, has spread to the enormous proportions that it has in the USA. THEN, add in the other STD's out there and spread that in the same fashion. What's this saying? You think that you are just taking things to the greatest orgasmic level when you are actually promoting a bad health exposure to the people out there that don't view things the same way. As for the jabs stating that I must not have much experience in sex or other things to try to get a rise out of me.....NOT fooled by that, but you apparently didn't do the search on me, as I told you that you may have wanted to. I have nothing to hide, though I don't feel the need to open my life history to everyone. I have had intercourse with 34 women, have fulfilled the gangbang fantasy for others, as people do tend to have that fantasy. The keyword being "fantasy". Having a fantasy is cool. Acting out on every fantasy, physically, isn't cool. That's irresponsible, self serving, unhealthy and missing the big picture. If one acted out on every fantasy they had.....how many ex's, or people in general, would be erased from the planet in aa moment of self pleasure. Part of being a human being and not acting like an animal is NOT acting out on every desire that we have. ESPECIALLY, when it directly can affect others in a negative fashion.
+SW->
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Unsu...
Re: gangbanging?
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 1:59 PM"there's a big difference between gang rape,which is illegal,and gangbangs,which are not because they are consentual."...my thoughts exactly...even in fantasies what one fantasies may offend or be dangerous in reality...but it's only a fantasy,reality is something else.Just because someone fantasises about something doesn't mean that they want it in reality.What someone choses to do consentually and legally with another may be offensive but it is their right,their body.Rape is horrific and totally wrong.As for why these fantasies?Danger is a good one,a safe thrill...no one harmed no consequences unlike real life. -
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Unsu...
Re: gangbanging?
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:26 PM<< but it's only a fantasy,reality is something else.Just because someone fantasises about something doesn't mean that they want it in reality >>
Agreed. But why not? When I fantasize about being a rock star, or saving the world, I would like those things to actually happen! But when I fantasize about gangbangs, I'm not so sure. Could I retain control? Would I be degraded? I do not want to be degraded, but I might not be able to control a group of men.
So I have shied away from gangbangs. But thinking about it has made me examine why I want something in my sexual fantasies that I don't want to experience in reality.
What's really interesting to me is that as I've explored the possibility of experiencing a gangbang in real life, my sexual fantasies have changed. Changing what one fantasize about sexually is very difficult to do with intent. But as I thought about what it was in gangbangs that was attractive to me, there was a small element of degradation hanging around in there. When thinking about a real gangbang, I do not want degradation. So I have been very surprised to discover that my sexual fantasies have changed! There is no degradation in them anymore. So it's been a very positive experience for me, to examine my fantasies and explore why I do not want to pursue them. -
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Unsu...
Re: gangbanging?
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:41 PMSomethings in fantasies are good...like you said it doesn't have to be sexual fantasies...if it empowers or something you really want and need,yeah why not? Even sex fantasies same deal...at least in fantasies you can call all the shots and have things exactly the way you want them...down to who you're with etc...which is impossible in real life...which has a plus and minus to that obviously.
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Re: The Judge Has Spoken
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 2:11 PM>>Your attitudes about sex are very negative. You think that one kind of sex is right for everyone, your kind of sex<<
Harriet makes a good point here Shadow. Your attitudes about how different people express themselves sexually smack of puritanism and a seldf centered world view.
If consenting adults want to be sexual in whatever ways and with whomever they want, why does that make them "skanks" in your opinion?
As long as its consensual, safe and satisfying I say that it's not my place to judge other's sexual habits and activities. Please stop trying to place your own sexual style as "normal".
It's predjudicial and judgemental. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Judge Has Spoken
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:38 PMhmmm...is it just me or did this thread get hijacked again?
what we we talking about... oh yeah... being friends with the enemy- did that include sex? mmm... i wonder...
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Unsu...
Re: The Judge Has Spoken
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 10:38 PMRich: You are funny on the puritanism thing, lol. I think you didn't read all I wrote and have forgotten many of the things that I have written that pertain to sex. I am referring to unsafe sex, not as you put it "safe sex".
The problem with society is that these situations start out as prepared safe sex, then.... a rubber breaks, someone is more forgiving of no protection because they are wasted at the time, someone doesn't mention that they are carrying a disease already or practices unsafe sex and is afraid to go to the doctor to find out the truth...in the meantime spreading their disease wherever they "lay". My "puritanical" issues are based on 2 things: safety and self respect. Above you had 1 person pointed at degradation for themself. How sad is it when a person WANTS to make themself to feel like a piece of crap? If one is desiring that in life...that isn't a point to build on...it is a point to go have therapy on, as the issues are much more deep seeded and the farther path, sexually unrelated is to see how far 1 can take themself down. That's my honest thoughts on it. There are more and grand explanations for each and every point that I make here through long, drawn out life experiences, BUT what is the point in going through all that when I know that the battle back will be in justifying a behavior. I know this, as I have justified some behaviors, until I came out of denial on some topics. I expect no more from other human beings than what I have done in the past. You know my thoughts on this, as does Harriet and some others. Going in a circle over it accomplishes nothing and, honestly, wastes my time that could be better spent doing other things that accomplish much more in life, as I assume is the case for other people in this debate.
Hell, if you guys are all for it....get together with each other and enjoy. It is your life you put on the line...not mine. I am with one person for life, so any and all of those std's will not be passed my way.
Shadow -
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Unsu...
Re: The Judge Has Spoken
Tue, May 16, 2006 - 10:26 AMWell said Shadow,well said.I certainly can't argue with that.
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being softer
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:53 PMGoddess can you post the thing you read on being softer. That speaks to me. It's something I'm working on and apparently people can see it--they keep remarking on it.
I can also be a bit of a "fuck you" person, but I am growing to realise that we all live on the same planet, and even in the same community, and that somehow we have to find a way to get along. Hence my question in this post.
I'm looking forward to more exploration of that with you as you feel it out more. -
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Unsu...
Re: being softer
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:40 PMof course, darlin' i have to find it again- but to understand what i was saying, it had to do with a repsonse i made to him and then he to me... hold on a minute.. i have to find it... -
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Unsu...
Re: being softer
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:53 PMok, Mike said:
"Well I understand that...
I am not as forgiving as I used to be.
I won't take any more abuse...
or... unkindness in any form.
I know I must make a leap of faith...
and enjoy it (falling in love)
but I am careful not to put...
my need to be nurtured...
second to...
accepting dysfunction projected on me
because : Well that's just their personality trait...
I won't judge them for who they are...
I will love unconditionally.
Forget that."
something in this made me think about myself from two different levels- the one level where i have been the 'abuser' so to speak have projected my dysfunctions onto someone else...which of course made me think that perhaps i should try a low flame instead of an inferno, or try to be 'softer'... and then the other way as the abused and what i deserve... that was it.
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 12:01 AMIn real life, I don't make friends very often because there is only a certain level of difference in beliefs I am willing to tolerate. Could I be friends with an ultra conservative, religious right-winger? Almost certainly not (though I can certainly be civil as long as they are). And I don't feel the NEED that many PC-types insist upon to befriend everybody. I have worked very hard to eliminate unnecessary drama from my life and I see no reason to create my own, "home brew," as it were by surrounding myself with people with whom I constantly argue.
On the internet, it's easy for me to disagree in a civil fashion. It's just the internet, after all. I can turn you people off and go back to work or read a book, etc.
"I think if I can only be friends with people who totally think like I do, then I am just plain intolerant...."
I disagree with this. People often use, "tolerance," when they mean, "acceptance." There is a huge semantic difference that I think is worth noting (unlike a majority of semantic hair-splitting). Tolerance simply allows people their own beliefs and views without being persecuted or celebrated. Acceptance, though, goes beyond tolerance to not only allow for alternate belief systems but an embrace thereof. Tolerance, I believe, is what people should be striving for: It doesn't require us to consume what everybody else is selling. All we have to do is let them sell it, so to speak. Acceptance is a craaaazy pipe dream where we all live in tiny mushroom houses and the stork brings new smurfs every blue moon and our only care is that pesky Gargamel. -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 8:49 AMJosh, you always crack me up- i enjoy reading your posts. i have to disagree on the definition of 'acceptance'- i am not so sure that acceptance means embracing the other person's belief systems- or at least if i'm reading this correctly, i am thinking that you mean that by accepting another's belief system somehow you 'agree' with it, even if originally you did not?
i accept a lot of people... i am, however, extremely intolerant (but working on it). i don't feel that accepting people means that i embrace their ideologies- it just means that i accept that they are human beings, worthy of friendship and support, and even if i disagree with their ideologies, i support their right to be who they are. for instance, my best friend and i have been friends for about 15 years, he is not from the US and has more of a global perspective, whereas i have a more American perspective- we have had some bitter arguments and are about as different on that level as oil and water, BUT i truly accept him and support his right to be and feel anyway that makes him happy. i guess for me, most of my friendships are extremely long-term so i've learned how to accept people but I don't neccessarily tolerate some of their ideologies.
as far as murders and extreme examples like that, i think its safe to say that most people don't fall in those catagories but for me, if i was faced with making a decision about being frineds with an murderer, i would have to decline since there more than likely would be 'no vibe'. :-)
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tolerance vs acceptance
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 7:55 PMI like this difference. I'm gonna use it consciously for a while and see what it reveals.
Like, who do I tolerate, who do I accept, who do I welcome and who do I oppose once and for all and for ever firmly hands down and with no second thoughts? -
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Re: tolerance vs acceptance
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 11:04 PMRachael I have worked with really hard-core Arabic kids among a diversity of cultures and know exactly what you are saying..... There is a part of me that wants to kick them fair up the arse..... but I know it will never work.... that is exactly where such behavior has come from in the first place in some ways.
What I have found - and this goes for all kids - that you peg em off and talk to them one on one and you will find that they are often the sweetest creatures you could ever meet. They are deeply emotional and incredibly loyal and believe it or not under all that bravado crap is a deep respect for women in particular their mothers and sisters.... I think sometimes it is a love hate thing.
I once had a kid that I knew really well come into the Centre totally off his nut on rhohipnol and threaten to head butt me!!!!! He was standing about 6 inches away from me looking me right in the eye and shouting "your'e fucking evil, you're fucking evil - look at her look at her eyes - she is fuckin evil".... I was obviously a mirror of his own madness.... :/
While I was contemplating whether he would infact headbutt me - one of my fine staff moved my body out of his range while distracting him.... I think I went into shock!!!! Anyhow the point is that much later when he was straight, I confronted him about his behavior and he apologized profusely while sweetly smiling and saying that I should have known he would never have done that.....
Mostly these young people did not ask to migrate to the countries they now find themselves in - or be born here - and what happens is that the parents really try to keep the family unit together through cultural practices and means. The kids get torn - we call it "the front door syndrome". They live two lives - one within their family unit and one outside with peers and very different laws and customs to their parents.... They can get really fucked up in this process as do their parents who try to give them all that they know.....
So I guess I try to be a little kinder even tho sometimes I really dont want to. I have to put values aside and appeal to their strengths. I can say that there are heaps of those boys who still come to visit me today after 12 years - and now they bring me their kids to kiss :D -
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Unsu...
Re: tolerance vs acceptance
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 9:35 AMCas and Rachael, i have to tell you that i understand what you mean about the Arab culture. My father is Arab and I got to know a little about that side of my heritage and I wasn't very happy with what I found. Needless to say, i don't really identify with it, mostly because he was not active in my life anyway and it feels far removed from who i am- BUT there is a lot of beauty in the culture and a lot of ugliness- which, the ugliness i personally think comes from a resistance to change and that resistance is pounded into the head of the young folk... just my observations and 2 cents.
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Re: tolerance vs acceptance
Sun, May 14, 2006 - 3:37 PM"I like this difference. I'm gonna use it consciously for a while and see what it reveals."
Once I made this distinction for myself I found that people did not make me nearly as angry nor as often.
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 3:32 PMseems that there are two different angles to this question (well, many more than two, but two that I'm writing about at this moment ;)
1 - can you accept something you find intolerable in a friend
and
2 - can you become friends with someone in whom you find something intolerable (think I'm saying that right ?)
like,
Goddess, I totally hear ya on knowing pretty quickly whether you "vibe" with someone or not.
so when you find someone that you click with, and are then developing a friendship with, and then learn something about the way they think or operate that's disturbing to you,
to me that feels like a very different scenario than when you're faced with someone who you don't agree with, and then are working out what kind of relationship/level of interaction you want to have with that person...
just an observation.... -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Sat, May 13, 2006 - 5:58 PMhmmm DEIA... i've been thinking about your post and trying to see if in my mind, there is truly a difference.... i think i have to see more examples of what your talking about. those are great observations, btw... what exactly is the difference between finding something intolerable in someone you consider a 'friend' or becoming friends with someone you find intolerable? i can't quite make out the difference in my mind...hmmm... but maybe its because i find most people intolerable so its all the same to me... i think most people could become a friend... no matter the difference.... (except in extreme cases of stupidity, arrogance or greed) if we are both willing to try, we are, after all, only human.
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 12:21 AM"I think if I can only be friends with people who totally think like I do,"
l think 'if'' is the key word here. -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 1:08 AMyou say potatoe i say tomato.
As far as I'm concerned you've still missused a term, perhaps orgy or something would have been a better term than gang bang.
Any reference that I've heard of a gang bang has been anythig has been positive.
I'm not saying that someone wanting to get used as a cum dumpster for a bunch of guys is wrong, I just think that wording it better would have made your point a bit clearer.
:) -
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Unsu...
Re: high fives with the enemy?
Mon, May 15, 2006 - 1:57 AM"I worked on separating their subculture (shaped by their oppression in France) from their race, and their religion, but it was hard not to end up a racist bitch. I made friends with Arab women, but the young men...jeez.
So the point of this story is, how do you remain civil and tolerant to people who are not civil and tolerant to you? Or do you meet them where they are? Does that basically lead to escalating aggression? Can it be useful?"
I think subculture is the key word in that sentence. There are some subcultures I completely despise, where I find those from that subculture pretty friggin useless human beings. We want to lump everyone together "Arab Culture" "Muslim Culture" I'm not proud of everything our nation did after 9'11 but I am proud that we did not use it as an excuse to hunt down all Muslims in America, put them in internment camps and otherwise abuse them. However, fundamentalism is a great evil in all it's many forms - whether we are talking about Islam, Christianity, Judiasm, Crackers, po-bukrah, Catholics, Orangemen, whatever. The intolerance that comes always comes from ignorance.
However, we do cling to some mythologys of our own. We cling to the belief that through education we can conquer this ignorance, that these problems can be solved - that mutual understanding, and therefore peace, can be achieved. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.
For instance we are mystified how Muslim students could be educated in the West, especially America, and go back to their countries and become terrorists. And these are the rich kids...As usual, we don't know our history - Attila was a hostage in Rome during his teenage years, and became appalled at their decadence and extravagance. It was part of his motivation to move against the West.
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Tue, May 16, 2006 - 4:30 PMyou say potatoe i say tomato.
As far as I'm concerned you've still missused a term, perhaps orgy or something would have been a better term than gang bang.
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Whoa, wait....are you talking to me here? Just clarifying, since your post falls under mine but we're past the threading max. Cuz l haven't gotten in on the gangbang discussion (and don't intend to) at all. -
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Tue, May 16, 2006 - 4:33 PMno Ali,
she was talking to Harriet..
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Re: high fives with the enemy?
Tue, May 16, 2006 - 4:59 PMFor the most part, l tend to have a very laissez-faire attitude towards others different opinions. l may challenge and discuss them, and as long as they can explain their opinions to me in a way l can understand (rather than necessarily agree with), there's usually a pretty stable level of respect for that viewpoint.
l believe l can tolerate quite a bit....l've seen and been part of a number of different cultures, and that helps. The issue l have is ultimately how one chooses to communicate that to me. l believe that, if we're friends, both parties need to apply a great deal of viligance in this effort. lf they can accomplish that, along with an understanding that they may not agree but can still hear and discuss, then learning *can* happen. Being open to different schools of thought, even crazy radical ones, is something l strive to do. The only time l'd say fuck it (and this goes back to the friends having beliefs l consider intolerable) is when it involves bodily harm against another's will.
But different ideas and thoughts? Bring em on, l love that shit. l try and prepare my friends for the fact that l won't blindly accept what they say, and will question that perspective's validity and point out the fallacies if l find them, and l do so because if l'm going to possibly integrate another's ideas into my own, l want to know why it's valuable for *myself* as well. Otherwise, l'm not learning much, then.
