A different view of the world ?

topic posted Thu, June 4, 2009 - 12:53 AM by 
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Sorry this is so long.

A good friend of mine was an Infantry Battalion Commander in the Vietnam War, He often hoids different views of the world than mine. Reading the below, I wondered what he would think of it. Then I wondered what reaction you guys might have....

Claim: Vietnam veteran Brian Shul delivered a patriotic speech in Chico,
California, in 2001.

Status: True.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2003]

Speech by Brian Shul in Chico California in the Fall of 2001


Brian Shul is a Vietnam era USAF fighter pilot with 212 combat
missions. He was shot down near the end of the war and was so badly
burned that he was given next to no chance to live. He did live,
went on to fly SR-71s and completed a 20 year career in the Air
Force. Has written four books on aviation and runs a photo studio.
This is a speech he made in Chico California in the aftermath of the
September 11th attack on the U.S.




Thank you for the opportunity to address this rally today. It is not
often that a fighter pilot is asked to be the keynote speaker. There
is a rumor that they are unable to put two sentences together
coherently. I'd like to dispel that rumor today by saying that I can
do that, and in fact that I have written several books. I always
wanted to be an author, and I ARE one now.

I'm a pretty lucky person really. I'm like the little boy who tells
his father that when he grows up he wants to be a jet pilot, and his
father replies, "Sorry son, you can't do both". I made that choice a
long time ago and flew the jets. I was fortunate to live my dream,
and then some. I survived something I shouldn't have, and today,
tell people that I am 28 years old, as it has been that long since I
was released from the hospital. It was like I received a second
life, and in the past 28 years, I have gotten to see and do much, so
much that I would not have thought possible. Returning to fly jets
in the Air Force, flying the SR-71 on spy missions, spending a year
with the Blue Angels, running my own photo studio.... and so much
more. And now, seeing our country attacked in such a heinous way.

Some of you here today have heard me speak before, and know that I
enjoy sharing my aviation slide show. I have brought no slides to
show you, as I feel compelled today, to address different issues
concerning this very difficult time in our nation's history.

I stand before you today, not as some famous person, or war hero. I
am far from that. You know, they say a good landing is one you can
walk away from, and a really great one is when you can use the
airplane again. Well, I did neither...and I speak to you to today as
simply a fellow American citizen.

Like you, I was horrified at the events of September 11th. But I was
not totally surprised that such a thing could happen, or that there
were people in the world who would perpetrate such deeds, willingly,
against us. Having sat through many classified briefings while in
the Air Force, I was all too l aware of the threat, and I can assure
you, it has always been there in one form or another. And those of
you who have served in the defense of this nation, know all too well
the response that is needed. In every fighter squadron I was in,
there was a saying that we knew to be true, that said, when there
was a true enemy, you negotiate with that enemy with your knee in
his chest and your knife at his throat.

Many people are unfamiliar with this way of thinking, and shrink
from its ramifications. War is such a messy business, and there are
many who want no part of it, but rush to bask in the security
blanket of its victory.

I spent an entire military career fighting Communism, and was very
proud to do so. We won that war, we beat one of the worst scourges
to humankind the world has known. But it took a great effort, over
many years of sustained vigilance and much sacrifice by so many
whose names you will never know. And perhaps our nation, so weary
from so long a cold war, relaxed too much and felt the world was a
safer place with the demise of the Soviet Union. We indulged
ourselves in our own lives, and gave little thought to the threats
to our national
security.

You know, normally my talks are laced with numerous jokes as I share
my stories, but I have very few jokes to tell this afternoon. These
murdering fanatics came into our land, lived amongst our people,
flew on our planes, crashed them into our buildings, and killed
thousands of our citizens. And nowhere along their gruesome path
were they questioned or stopped. The joke is on us. We allowed this
country to become soft.

We shouldn't really be too surprised that this could happen. Did we
really think that we could keep electing officials who put self
above nation and this would make us stronger? Did we really think
that a strong economy adequately replaced a strong intelligence
community? Did we imagine that a President who practically gave away
the store on his watch, was insuring national security? While our
country was mired in the wasted excess of a White House sex scandal,
the drums of war beat loudly in foreign lands, and we were deaf. Our
response was to give the man two terms in office, and even then
barely half the American public exercised their right to vote. We
have only ourselves to blame. Our elected officials are merely a
reflection of our own values and what we deem important.

Did we not realize that America had become a laughing stock around
the world? We had lost credibility, even amongst our allies. To our
enemies we had no resolve. We made a lot of money, watched a lot of
TV, and understood little about what was happening beyond our
shores. We were, simply, an easy target.

But we are a country awakened now. We have been attacked in our
homeland. We have now felt the reality of what an unstable and
dangerous world it truly is. And still, in the face of this
unprecedented carnage in our most prominent city, there are those
who choose to take this opportunity to protest, and even burn the
flag.

If I were the regents or alumni of certain large universities in
this county, I would be embarrassed to be producing students of such
ignorance and naïve notions. Like mindless sheep, they march with
painted faces and trite sayings on signs, blissfully ignorant of the
world they live in, and the system that protects them, hoping maybe
to make the evening news. Perhaps if they had spent more time in
class they would have learned that those who forget the past are
condemned to repeat it. They might have learned that all it takes
for evil to succeed in the world, is for good people to stand by and
do nothing. If they had simply gone back in history as recently as
the Viet Nam War, they would have learned that an enemy that knows
it can never defeat us militarily, will persist as long as there is
dissention and disruption in our land. Their ignorance can be
understood, as their young empty minds have been filled with the
re-written history tripe that tenured leftist professors can spew
out with no fear of removal. But the unwitting aid they provide the
enemy, in disrupting the national resolve, is unforgivable. I think
this is wonderful country, though, that gives everyone their voice
of dissention. I am all for people expressing their views publicly
because it makes it much easier for us to identify the truly
foolish, and to know who cannot be counted on in times of crisis.
These are the weak and cowardly who, when the enemy is crashing
through the front door, will cower in the back room, counting on
better men than themselves to make and keep them free. Well, the
enemy is at our front door, and isn't it interesting those who cry
loudest and most often for their rights, are usually those least
willing to defend it.

I heard a student on TV the other day say that this war just wasn't
in his plans and he would simply head to Canada if a draft occurred.
Just wasn't in his plans. I wonder what plans the young men at the
beaches of Normandy had that they never got to live. I wonder if it
was in the plans of 19-year-old boys in Viet Nam to lie dying in a
jungle far from home. I guess the men and women at Pearl Harbor one
morning had their plans slightly rearranged too. Gee, I hope we
haven't inconvenienced this student. Those people in the World Trade
Center have no more plans. It is up to us to have a plan now. And it
isn't going to be easy. Who ever said it would? Just what part of
our history spoke of how easy it was to form a free nation? It has
never been easy and has always required vigilance and sacrifice, and
sometimes war, to preserved this union. If it were easy, everyone
would have done it. But no one else has, and we stand alone as the
most unique country on earth.

And isn't it amazing that we have spent a generation stamping God
out of our schools and government, and now as a nation, have
collectively turned to God in memorial services, prayer vigils and
churches around this country.

I am also very disturbed to hear that there are people in this
country, at this particular time, who feel it inappropriate to wear
the flag on their lapel because they are on the news or in a public
job, and school officials who want to remove pro-American stickers
so as not to offend foreign students. Well I am offended that these
people call themselves Americans. I am offended that innocent people
were killed in a mass attack of unthinkable proportions. And I am
offended at listening to TV broadcasters speak to me
condescendingly, with a bias that screams of their drowning in a
cesspool of political correctness. I pity the person who thinks they
are going to remove this flag from my lapel.

This flag of ours is the symbol of all that is good about this
country. America is an idea. It is an idea lived, and fought for, by
a people. We are America, and this is our symbol. We are imperfect
in many ways, but we continue to strive toward the ideal our
forefathers laid down for us over 225 years ago. I could never
imagine desecrating that symbol. Perhaps there are many people in
this nation who have never been abroad, or in harms way, and seen
the flag upon their return. Those poor souls can never know the deep
pride and honor one feels to see it wave, to know that there is
still a good ol' USA. With all our warts we are still the greatest
nation on earth, and the flag is the most powerful symbol of that
greatness. When I was in grade school, we used to say the Pledge of
Allegiance every morning. It is something I never forgot. I wonder
how many children even know that pledge today.

This flag is our history, our dreams, our accomplishments, indelibly
expressed in bright red, white, and blue. This flag was carried in
our Revolutionary War, although it had many less stars. But it
persevered and evolved throughout a war we had no right to believe
we could win. But we did, and built a country around it. This flag,
tattered and battle worn, waved proudly from the mast, as John Paul
Jones showed the enemy what true resolve was. This banner was raised
by the hands of brave men on a godforsaken island called Iwo Jima,
and became a part of the most famous photo of the 20th Century.
Those men are all dead now, but their legacy lives on in the Marine
Memorial in Washington, DC. Those of you who have seen it will
recall that inscribed within the stone monument are the words — When
Uncommon Valor, Was A Common Virtue — I don't believe you'll see the
words, "it was easy", anywhere on it. This flag has even been to the
moon, planted there for all time by men with a vision, and the
courage to see it through.

I personally know what it is to see the flag, and feel something
deep inside that makes you feel you are a part of something much
bigger than yourself. Laying in a hospital bed, I can vividly recall
looking out the only window in the room and on Sundays, seeing that
big garrison flag flying proudly in the breeze. It filled the entire
window, and filled my heart with a motivation that helped me leave
that bed, and enabled me to be standing here today. And many years
later, while fighting another terrorist over Libya, my backseater
and I outraced Khaddafi's missiles in our SR-71 as we headed for the
Mediterranean, and I can still clearly see that American flag patch
on the shoulder of my space suit, staring at me in the rear view
mirror as we headed west, and it was a good feeling. Now don't ask
me why we had rear view mirrors in the world's fastest jet. I can
assure you, no one was gaining on us that day.

I am so happy to see so many flags out here today. Long may it wave.


History will judge us. How we confront this chapter of American
history will be important for the future of this great nation. This
will be a war like none other we have endured. The combatants will
not just be the soldier on the battlefront, but will be fought by
us, the citizens. We are on the battlefield now; the war has been
brought to us. We will determine the outcome of this war by how well
we remain vigilant, how patient we are with tightened security, how
well we support the economy, and most importantly, in the resolve we
show the enemy. There are some things worth fighting for, and this
country is one of them.

I pray for our leaders at this time. In the Pacific, during WW II,
Admiral Bull Halsey said, "There are no great men, just great
circumstances, and how they handle those circumstances will
determine the outcome of history". Our future and the future of
coming generations are in our hands. Wars are not won just on
military fronts, but by the resolve of the people. We must remain
tenaciously strong in the pursuit of this enemy that threatens free
people everywhere.

I am encouraged that we will win this war. Even before the first
shot was finished being fired, there were brave Americans on Flight
93, fighting back. These people were the first true heroes of this
conflict, and gave their lives to save their fellow countrymen.

This nation, this melting pot of humanity, this free republic, must
be preserved. This idea that is America is important enough to be
defended. Fought for. Even die for. The enemy fears what you have,
for if their people ever become liberated into a free society,
tyrannical dictatorships will cease and he will lose power.

How can they ever understand this country of ours, so self-indulgent
and diverse, yet when attacked, so united in the defense of its
principals. This is the greatest country in the world because brave
people sacrificed to make it that way. We are a collective mix of
greatness and greed, hi-tech and heartland. We are the country of
Mickey Mouse and Mickey Mantle; from John Smith and Pocahontas to
John Glenn and an Atlas booster; from Charles Lindbergh to Charley
Brown; from Moby Dick to Microsoft; we are a nation that went from
Kitty Hawk to Tranquility Base in less than 70 years; we are rock
and roll, and the Bill of Rights; we are where everyone else wants
to be, the greatest nation in the world.

The enemy does not understand the dichotomy of our society, but they
should understand this; we will bandage our wounds, we will bury our
dead; and then we will come for you . . . and we will destroy you
and all you stand for.

I read this quote recently and would like to share it with you:

We are pressed on every side, but not crushed,
Perplexed, but not in despair,
Persecuted, but not abandoned,
Struck down, but not destroyed.

That is from II Corinthians. Not too long ago it would have been
politically incorrect to quote from the Bible. I am so happy to be
politically INCORRECT. And I am so proud to be an American.

Thank you all for coming out today and showing your support for your
government, and your nation. You are the true patriots, you are the
soldiers of this war, you are the strength of America.

Source www.snopes.com/rumors/shul.asp

~

What do you think ?
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  • Re: A different view of the world ?

    Thu, June 4, 2009 - 10:48 PM
    More

    I have no cause to be credit less or blameless, I am neither too important to spare or too insignificant to waste, no need to be exalted for bravery nor desire to cringe with fear, and yet at all times my effects sprinkle among the stars with all of these and more…

    It is this more, that I search, build and grow.

    Not upon your brow will your sweat feed me without your consent, nor I my pleasure denied in recompense, my labored tears are quelled amid the days and nights we share, for this I stand.
    No man, no woman, no child, no creature big or small has a hold on me, that does not come to me uninvited, my arms wide open receive with pleasure the welcoming songs of the voices I hear, both near and far, both strange and wonderful. And still my unbridled joy is reined in by the cries of many a fallen friend, only in these quiet moments of riotous screams is laughter left without a place to dwell, only in the dusty memories of triumph and defeat is the squalor and resplendent a hasty footnote. The victories are all stolen, the losses forgot, now I but recall your loves that faced and kept my smile a shiny window that bears the fruit and tastes the wine of the many days we had where mourning was excused and grief meant a moment's peace so full of grace was held, all for this and more, so much more, my tongue stutters to speak, my lips tremble with awe and my fingers know their own kindness is to find a way back home.


    "...in order to form a more perfect union...", is a promise, if not kept there is no home to find on a way to or back.
  • Re: A different view of the world ?

    Sat, June 6, 2009 - 12:04 AM
    You asked how we would react to this speech. Personally I couldn't disagree with most of it more. I wonder if even the speaker's opinion has remained unchanged in the eight years since this speech was given. In those eight years we have discovered no link between the 9/11 hijackers and the poor relatively unarmed country we attacked and destroyed, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians as well as thousands of innocent American soldiers. Face it we went to war to gain oil riches, help the wealthy companies like Haliburton make money and to provide Bush's right wing regime a reason to wire tap and restrict American freedom while shredding the constitution.

    >>Did we imagine that a President who practically gave away
    the store on his watch, was insuring national security? While our
    country was mired in the wasted excess of a White House sex scandal,
    the drums of war beat loudly in foreign lands, and we were deaf... Did we not realize that America had become a laughing stock around
    the world? We had lost credibility, even amongst our allies. <<

    Actually I'll take the strong economy over our current weakened one, although I agree that the Republicans shouldn't have wasted so much time and effort on a meaningless sex scandal. Bush is really the one who gave away the store. Outsourcing not only civilian jobs but military ones as well. Giving up not only jobs but any real hope of national security. He tried to allow DuBai to own the security details at our ports, which thankfully was prevented. Helost 9 billion dollars in cash in Iraq, a pile of money that could be seen from space. We became the laughing stock of the rest of the world thanks to the Republican leadership, needless war mongering, and wasteful selfish practrices designed to enrich their wealthy supporters. We lost our international credibility by attcking for no justifiable reason, endorsing torture, and refusing to build any sort of meaningful coalition with other governments.

    >>You are the true patriots, you are the
    soldiers of this war, you are the strength of America. <<

    A real patriot would never endorse a needless war, torture as a policy, and domestic spying as routine. I'm glad we are finally moving away from that. The real strength of this country is shown by people who are willing to speak honestly about the crimes our leaders have commited in this needless killing and the damage done to our constitutional freedoms by our previous political regime. Once we address that maybe the world will regain some respect for us.


    • Re: A different view of the world ?

      Sat, June 6, 2009 - 12:59 AM
      >>>>>>War is such a messy business, and there are many who want no part of it, but rush to bask in the security blanket of its victory. >>>>>>

      I think most people have wizened up in the 8 years since this speech and are rushing as fast as they can away from being associated with it. Many including Barack Obama spoke against it from the beginning.

      Obama's speech in Cairo labeled Iraq as "a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and around the world. Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately better off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that events in Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible."

      War is not a solution, it is a symptom that you are unable to reason or incapable of reasoned diplomacy.


      • Re: A different view of the world ?

        Sat, June 6, 2009 - 9:26 AM
        >>War is not a solution, it is a symptom that you are unable to reason or incapable of reasoned diplomacy.<<

        not always, Deb

        some wars have been fought out of necessity rather than choice
        • Re: A different view of the world ?

          Sat, June 6, 2009 - 2:44 PM
          "some wars have been fought out of necessity rather than choice"

          I'd like to have one example that couldn't have been solved by cooler heads prevailing. Even WWII could have been stopped by giving the German people some support in questioning Hitler early on instead of having the elites in the West supporting Hitler.
          • Re: A different view of the world ?

            Sat, June 6, 2009 - 2:49 PM
            i refuse to engage with that level of (willful) naivete, Deb

            really.
            • Re: A different view of the world ?

              Sat, June 6, 2009 - 5:02 PM
              Hitler was preventable, turning our backs on the desperation of others always results in a hefty price tag.
              • Re: A different view of the world ?

                Sat, June 6, 2009 - 5:06 PM
                Perhaps Hitler was preventable. But I don't think WW2 was because the way things shook out at the end of WW1,
                • Re: A different view of the world ?

                  Sat, June 6, 2009 - 5:52 PM
                  The solution to WWII was rebuilding Germany rather than saddling them with the burdens they did. The support should have happened then. At that point Hitler would not have risen to prominence and subsequent policy of appeasement would not have occurred... But then again Hindsight is 20/20.

                  During the same period... What about the Japanese? Should they have been allowed to continue their aggressive expansion by force?

                  So for those who claim all war can be avoided... what about the American revolution... Should the founding fathers simply folded under unjust rule and exploitation? What solution would you propose then?

                  In my opinion there are such things as just wars. most are not just wars..

                  If a sovereign nation is attacked out of aggression, as Saddam did to Kuwait, i think it is up the the world community to use required force to repel said attack. By this reasoning yes the world community should have used required force to throw us out of Iraq. Force beyond the amount needed to resolve said issue would become unjust.

                  The politics and ethics of war are far to complex for this forum but I will say both the War monger speaker in the fdirst post and the "Oh all wars are wrong and can be avoided" groups are naive.

                  JSin
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: A different view of the world ?

                    Sat, June 6, 2009 - 6:05 PM
                    <<Should the founding fathers simply folded under unjust rule and exploitation? What solution would you propose then? >>

                    They should have hugged it out.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: A different view of the world ?

                    Sat, June 6, 2009 - 6:56 PM
                    "I will say both the War monger speaker in the fdirst post and the "Oh all wars are wrong and can be avoided" groups are naive."

                    JSin, you're probably more right than wrong with this statement however doesn't that mean that there's a happy medium somewhere and that some or even most wars could be prevented.

                    I don't know enough about the Japanese expansion plans pre-WWII and that's probably a matter of our Canadian education system focussing on the European part of that war. So I won't comment.

                    On the American revolution, I'm not sure if the British empire could have been appeased and to the satisfaction of the American revolutionaries but I will say that Canada came into being by negotiation with Britain. We became a country in 1867 with the passage of the British North America Act which further evolved in 1931 with the Statute of Westminster and then in 1982 the Canada Act.

                    Aggression should be met with resistance from all the international community, first with negotiation, then sanctions, then force.

                    I'm not sure any group of countries had the capacity to oppose the war of aggression that America perpetrated on Iraq but I do believe we have all reacted in different ways mostly by the collectively lowering of America in our sights as a country that can be looked up to. The election of Obama has gone some way to assuage that however if Guantanomo isn't closed, America will remain a scourge for some time to come. The rule of law is critical.

                    I may be naive but I'd like to see the adoption by the US of one of Dennis Kucinich's ideas - the Department of Peace. The first task would be to look back through history to understand what lessons should have or could have been learned from the wars of history. Then using that information to counter the war hawks in America. This would be a good first step.

                    Then i do still wholeheartedly believe that if more women were represented in all of the governments of the world, each country would spend more time focussed on enacting legislation that is good for the family and for children. In other words, there would be a better balance of focus on cleaning up our own backyards than worrying about what's going on elsewhere.
                    • Re: A different view of the world ?

                      Sat, June 6, 2009 - 8:51 PM
                      Deb wrote:
                      >"On the American revolution, I'm not sure if the British empire could have been appeased and to the satisfaction of the American revolutionaries but I will say that Canada came into being by negotiation with Britain. We became a country in 1867 with the passage of the British North America Act which further evolved in 1931 with the Statute of Westminster and then in 1982 the Canada Act."<

                      Consider this though... Canada's independence began nearly one hundred years after the founding fathers of the US gained their freedom, during the period Great Britain saw vast expanse of their empire crumble much of it as a result of the American's successful defeat of what widely considered the most powerful nation on the planet. This emboldened many of her colonies and increasing pressure from the widely stretched colonies made the British conducive to negotiate. I think a very different path would have been taken if the US had not been successful.

                      You also have to consider the the British were fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts during that period including many small conflicts in Africa, the far east and India. Finally due to the American Civil war Britain saw their textiles industry <a major source of income> collapse due to lack of cotton. Finally a steep drop in income from the dissolution of the East India Company.

                      Meanwhile numerous rebellions and violent skirmishes were occurring across Canada.

                      Given that the economy of canada at the time was quite primitive there was not a lot to fight over as opposed to the American colonys that the Brits were heavily exploiting for Cotton, tobacco, iron coal and timber while refusing the right of the people to manufacture goods from their raw materials. In fact at one point the oppression of the American colonies was so severe Americans were not even allowed to produce their own shovels. The Iron ore and coal was mined from the colonies and then the colonists were expected to buy the finished shovels <shipped back> at a tidy profit. John Ames illegally produced shovels and his shovels were used to dig the trenches for the Americans during the revolution.

                      Under these conditions it is quite apparent that the Canadian colonial experience was quite different from the Americans.

                      It also likely is not a time line most Americans would be willing to follow... You guys really didn't get legislative independence until early in the last century.

                      There are many that argue that while you have some autonomy you are still bound by the Queen of England and have no independence. In my view given that you accept the Queen as the head of state you are still a British colony.

                      So yeah over a 200+ year period Canadians have negotiated not a bad gig as a puppet state without significant violence.

                      The American founding fathers had a different vision. One of an independent country free of British rule and rule of law. To accomplish that it became clear after extensive negotiation no option remained but war. I would consider that a just war and a required one.

                      JSin
                      • Re: A different view of the world ?

                        Mon, June 8, 2009 - 9:39 AM
                        i can't believe there are still women that believe 'if women had more control
                        over more shit, everything would be better.' less men means less anger and
                        warmongering and conflict? because the remaining men, and additional women,
                        would obviously all agree on tactics and paths towards peace? please.



                        "I may be naive but I'd like to see the adoption by the US of one of Dennis Kucinich's ideas - the Department of Peace. The first task would be to look back through history to understand what lessons should have or could have been learned from the wars of history. Then using that information to counter the war hawks in America."

                        who would do this 'looking back through history' to determine what lessons were missed?
                        who decides what 'lessons should or could have been learned'?

                        sometimes, historically, it seems that doing anything and everything to 'prevent' war
                        hasn't been much of a solution to a problem. if there's a potential for something so extreme
                        as war, it doesn't sound like being thrown in a sandbox with 'learn to play nice' is gonna cut it.

                        i think war is a horrifying thing. that doesn't always seem to be enough to make it avoidable.
                        • Re: A different view of the world ?

                          Mon, June 8, 2009 - 11:42 AM
                          Nicole;

                          I just think that the focus changes when more women are involved. We think about the quality of water and air that our kids are goin' be growing up in. Not to say that many men don't think of this too but there seems to be something wrong with the dynamic when our financial system is falling down around us and we're in two wars, etc.

                          The war mongers are corporate pirates in the military industrial complex and combined with the financial industry they've bought and paid for the representatives to make decisions in their favour.

                          The Ministry of Peace could have reports from the left academia and the right academia sent in on what they think should have been learned. Heck, these studies have all been done in the universities but they haven't been synthesized into useful information for legislators.

                          For example, Margaret MacMillan changed the world's perceptions about the cause of WWII with her book Paris 1919: Six Months that Changed the World, published in 2002.

                          www2.canada.com/national/n.../story.html

                          Everyone thinks it was the Treaty of Versailles alone but she shows in a deliberate and factual way what the other causes were and some of them are surprises.

                          Most times we are not honest about what causes war and conflict. Almost always it's related to money but we're too nice to talk about those truths.

                          The sandbox theory is frankly patronizing to even bring up.

                          I've been a UN peacekeeper so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to war but I've also learned mediation and conflict-resolution. We are not applying the skills we have to avoid the horrors of war. Full stop.

                          So what do you propose we do to change our outlook?

                          We just allowed the money machine to tell us lies and take us into a $4 trillion war where hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed or injured not too mention the American soldiers. Plus it's almost bankrupted the United States. And we let it happen.

                          How do we stop that?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: A different view of the world ?

                    Sat, June 6, 2009 - 7:42 PM
                    Plenty of examples of despotic female rulers( in title or defacto) through out history.
                    I really don't think our magic boobies make women any more peaceful than men. We just haven't had as much of a chance to push the buttons as the men due to the whole patriarchy thing they had going on for a while.
                    And yeah, Japan was all up in everyone's business for while there leading up to the world war.They had a manifest destiny thing going on for sure.
                    Germany wanted their collective self esteem back after being so thoroughly trashed in world war one. Hitler was in the righ time and the right place, saying the right thing. I think if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else filling that vacuum of crazy.
                    • Re: A different view of the world ?

                      Sat, June 6, 2009 - 8:13 PM
                      Yeah I can think of one Modern one off the top of my head... Maggie Thacher and her war of aggression against Argentina. Tits are not going to fix it.

                      JSin
                      • Re: A different view of the world ?

                        Sat, June 6, 2009 - 8:21 PM
                        I didn't say that women can fix it by themselves. In most cases the women, like Maggie Thatcher, ACT more like men because they are in the minority in the situation and the value of what they can contribute as women is devalued by the institution they are in.

                        With 50% women and 50% men in the roles of power, then the benefits come out.
                        • Re: A different view of the world ?

                          Sat, June 6, 2009 - 8:25 PM
                          I don't know, did she really act like an ass just because she thought that is what she should do because she was in the minority or did she do it because truly she is an ass? I suspect the later
                          • Re: A different view of the world ?

                            Sat, June 6, 2009 - 8:29 PM
                            I suspect we won't know until we have at least one country on earth that gets to this point.

                            Having worked on some community groups where I was the only woman, I can tell you it's difficult to get your voice heard. I've left some of those boards at the end of a term partially because I didn't like what I was turning into. I didn't like the person I needed to become to succeed in that group.

                            I don't expect this mattered much to Maggie Thatcher.
          • Re: A different view of the world ?

            Sat, June 6, 2009 - 5:00 PM
            WW2 had it's beginning in the WW1, actually.

            But sometimes, wars occur because there is a head full of hate and numerous sociopathic disorders who finds cooler heads to be weak and to be despised.

            There are entire cultures who have based their survival and continuation on conquering and subjugating their neighbors, since the beginning of organized human community settlements.



            But this thread got godwinned early.
            • Re: A different view of the world ?

              Sat, June 6, 2009 - 5:08 PM
              Yes, Elaine, you're right the Treaty of Versailles was a despicable travesty. It could have easily been foreseen that another war would erupt.

              "head full of hate and numerous sociopathic disorders who finds cooler heads to be weak and to be despised. "

              My political involvement leads me to believe that if there were an equal number of women in the halls of power that the "head full of hate and numerous sociopathic disorders who finds cooler heads to be weak and to be despised" would be outnumbered by the rational men and rational women in the majority.
  • Re: A different view of the world ?

    Sat, June 6, 2009 - 9:57 AM
    This guy is someone who made my eyes glaze over two paragraphs into the speech. I hate that "Peace activists are stoopid" crap.

    God forbid anyone question the whole " saving our freedoms from the turrists" bull shit the conservative soldier guys spout off every so often.

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