HELL

topic posted Sat, November 29, 2008 - 3:24 PM by  J T
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"Hell"

Basically, there are only three words translated as "hell" in the entire Bible. The word "hell", as we in our time have mythologized it actually NEVER occurs in the entire Bible. It was inserted by the King James translators...and others with the vested interest of controlling the masses through spiritual and literal fear.

The words associated with "Hell"

New Testament (NT) link: www.biblegateway.com/keyword/
(substitute the word Gehenna in each instance that "hell" is used...)

Gehenna (greek)
In the OT, the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom' (hebrew) meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:25). This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire, as human sacrifices were once stacked like cordwood there and burned in fiery conflagration. Hence, the "burning forever" in torment concept was most likely formed in relation to this valley. The word 'Gehenna' is found in the NT 14 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is an actual physical location, the city dump!
The Jews believed this valley to be cursed, and it was turned into a refuse heap, the city dump. It was a jagged crevasse where refuse was hurriedly thrown, since the land there was not fit for any other purpose. Even in modern times, the organic waste in a dump...if left to rot, may eventually spontaneously combust. Such was the case with this valley outside of Jerusalem. I can imagine it to be the very vision of "hell", with the acrid smoke, and smell, perpetual burning and cursed history. I can imagine Jewish parents teasing their children, "If you do not behave, we will take you out to Gehenna and leave you there." Children may have had the task of helping to carry refuse, and knew the place and its horrors well.
This place was within the consciousness of every Jerusalem Jew, and if they needed a reminder, they simply needed to cast their gaze off to the southwest, and the smoky stench rising from it was clearly visible. It is how the desolate vision of hell came into the modern human consciousness. The rest is pure myth supplied by Dante, Milton, and other writers with apocalyptic views.
"Hell" is a word never in the Bible, and "Gehenna" was the word used - for the smelly dump outside the city gates!

Hades
This word only occurs in the NT, ten times, and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23. The other six occur in Acts 2:27,31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14.
It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or "hell" for the bad." In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is a place of the conscious dead in waiting.

Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave. It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30,33; Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13).

These two concepts (Hades/Sheol) are ancient and borrowed from the Greeks and stories and myths back into prehistoric times...to the very earliest memory. The concept of purgatory also springs from them.

Hell is pure mythology, at least as we know it...and is wholly unsupported by the Bible. It is a case of rewriting Biblical statements to support a foregone conclusion. Not one of accepting what is actually written and why.


Tartarus

Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. According to the Greek poet Hesiod, a bronze anvil falling from heaven would take nine days and nights to reach earth, and an object would take the same amount of time to fall from earth into Tartarus. Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe.

While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods; the Titans were condemned to Tartarus after losing their battle against the Olympian gods, and the hecatoncheires stood over them as guards at the bronze gates. When Zeus overcomes the monster Typhus, born from Tartarus and Gaia, he hurls it too into the same abyss.

However, in later myths Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. When the hero Aeneas visits the underworld, he looks into Tartarus and sees the torments inflicted on characters such as the Titans, Tityos, Otus and Ephialtes, and the Lapiths. Rhadymanthus (and, in some versions, his brother Minos) judges the dead and assigns punishment.

There may be minor Biblical associations with the word Tarturus....in the same vein as Hades/Sheol.

Interesting that all of these concepts are not Christian in any way...but much older ones. I doubt very seriously if Jesus Christ himself taught fear of any of them. The only word he ever used was Gehenna...which was NOT "hell". It was a psychological mindset separated from God's and represented by the Valley of Hinnom, a cursed valley turned into the city dump of Jerusalem! Nothing more! There is NO HELL waiting to burn anyone in torment for eternity! But, if you love suffering and torment and MUST have it in your philosophy and/or religion, knock yourself out!
posted by:
J T
offline J T
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  • Re: HELL

    Sat, November 29, 2008 - 3:36 PM
    ... is trying to figure out what possible relevance to "mythology" has to "honesty" (extreme or otherwise).
    • Re: HELL (does not exist)

      Sat, November 29, 2008 - 7:58 PM
      I was recently threatened once again with going to "hell" (so tired of this), and just wanted to show what an empty threat that is - and always has been.

      Hell = dishonesty,
      No hell (except what we make for ourselves on this planet) = honesty. Okay?

      Just FYI, and those who keep making empty threats.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: HELL (does not exist)

        Sat, November 29, 2008 - 8:16 PM
        So J.T., you initiated a thread on "HELL" in order to say something specific to someone specific...or perhaps a few someone's from teh sounds of it. Is this person or are these people here in the EH tribe? If so, then why didn't you address them specifically? If not then why did you choose to post this here in the manner that you did?

        What I mean is, you initiated this thread in a way that sounded as if you were simply passing on some interesting information for discussion...which is all well and fine and precisely why I responded. But now, based on your most recent post, "I was recently threatened once again with going to "hell" (so tired of this), and just wanted to show what an empty threat that is - and always has been" it sounds as if you have a bone to pick with someone on a personal level in which case I suggest you pick it directly with THEM. Otherwise your behavior seems like a displaced, passive-aggressive response to their aggression, whoever 'they' are.

        Nonetheless, I DO find the topic fascinating in an objective sort of way...but I didn't sign up to be on the *for or against J.T." team that seems to be your true motivation here.

        -K
        • Re: HELL (does not exist)

          Sun, November 30, 2008 - 7:29 PM
          Degree in psychology, K?

          Between you and Anne...I was set up for the kill here. No, not passive/aggressive...simple honesty. Anne inquired as to how this was appropriate for this Tribe. I was explaining what circumstances motivated me into this subject matter. Not asking anyone to take any particular POV, nor directing it to any particular person. But, seems there may be some passive/aggressive postures here.

          I DID submit it objectively...my response was to a less than objective POV.

          Take it all however you will....no skin off my nose. Rough waters being the "nubie" in this place, I take it. We shall see...

          I submitted it purely as informational...as I see other threads here of exactly the same ilk.
          • Re: HELL (does not exist)

            Sun, November 30, 2008 - 11:39 PM
            Jt, Anne tends to play with her food before she kills it.


            Just a little heads up for the newbie.
            • Re: HELL (does not exist)

              Sun, November 30, 2008 - 11:53 PM
              Thanks for the heads up, I am just wondering how all this adds up to this:

              "This is a tribe for people who strive for complete honesty in their dealings with other humans. A tribe for people who value compassionate truth over social conventions for polite conversation (aka white lies). Tired of interacting with people's masks instead of their true selves? Ready to delve into deeper relationships complete with vulnerability & trust? I want this to be a safe & supportive place for people committed to this to discuss (and vent if necessary) some of the trials & tribulations of attempting this in a world where a pretty lie is often favored over a less than pretty truth."
              • Re: HELL (does not exist)

                Sun, November 30, 2008 - 11:59 PM
                Actually that tribe description was from a former moderator. The current mod Rich left it up there he is a nice guy and thought it sounded pretty ( this may or may not be the truth, or I may have made it up in my head ).

                This tribe has been around for a long time and of course has changed and become a bit different than the original creator of this tribe's intent. Happens quite often in the tribes I have been.
                • Re: HELL (does not exist)

                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:12 AM
                  Oh. Seems like I fell into an offshoot of the BM tribe by mistake, then? Nothing whatsoever to do with honesty? Oh well, honest mistake....sorry. Does this mean "bugger off", Mr Hell?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: HELL (does not exist)

                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:17 AM
                    Don't take any of this too hard, JT. There have been a ton of people that have come in and harassed the members and from what I've witnessed, there isn't a lot of patience for words that may trigger though you wouldn't know what they are.

                    I actually though it was refreshing to read something in a thread that made me think. It's been a while. Of course, a lot of that has to do with multiple tribe failures and diminished posters. There have been some really fascinating threads, but not too often lately.
                    Also, a lot of the members here are just goofy and enjoy taking the piss out of each other. No harm intended.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: HELL (does not exist)

                    Tue, December 2, 2008 - 1:15 AM
                    Jt...I always figured you were J Timothy come back to haunt us.

                    If you dont like the tribe you are free to leave.
                    • Re: HELL (does not exist)

                      Thu, December 4, 2008 - 4:40 PM
                      howdee rich, nice to see ya around. i guess your invitation-to-leave was taken by j-t. oh well... if he was the alt that others-claimed, at least i am glad that he didnt delete this thread this time... as others have said, it would not be critical - but it would be a bit annoying.

                      if (as the title says) hell does not exist, does that mean that heaven does not exist either?

                      i wonder if there are a whole-series of random hebrew (or whatever) words for heaven - similar to those the OP described for hell. and for bonus-points on the biblical-scholar-test, are those words absconded from other traditions as well? i guess we will never know... it is not like there are whole mess of people who might get offended at being "accused" of "going to heaven" in a handbasket... lol
      • Re: HELL (does not exist)

        Sat, November 29, 2008 - 8:34 PM
        Did they really mean to threaten with hell or were they just saying "go to hell" in the same way one would say "get stuffed" or "fuck off." None of things are meant to be taken literally.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: HELL (does not exist)

          Sat, November 29, 2008 - 8:38 PM
          Get stuffed?

          Who says this, Younie? Oh wait. You're married to one of those crazy Scotsmen. nevermind.

          -K
          • Re: HELL (does not exist)

            Sat, November 29, 2008 - 8:43 PM
            LOL! I've never heard him say that but some Brits do say it.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: HELL (does not exist)

              Sat, November 29, 2008 - 8:55 PM
              Being semi raised by a Scots-Irish grandfather and an Irish grandmother I came to understand the terms "bugger" and "bugger off" to mean something akin to fuck off, but with distinct anal connotations. Imagine my surprise when a Turkish friend of mine accidentally referred to my youngest daughter as a "bugger"- cuz her nickname is Bug- and then later, when my daughter was squriming all around while we were watching a movie my friend said, "You are so sweet but you need to bugger off so we can watch this movie".

              I could NOT stop laughing, which didn't exactly help her movie watching experience...and once I got going the kiddo's began laughing in response and well, we missed a good 10 to 15 minutes of "Bolt". She kept asking me to explain to her what was so funny, but between trying to stop laughing and trying to bridge our cultures and language issues, it only made things that much funnier for me and that much worse for her!

              I suppose it's a good thing I didn't take it personally and get all offended, but perhaps if I had she could've watched the movie in relative silence. But t this day, (2 weeks later), she KEEPS asking me to explain what was so funny, and I can't help but laugh all over again. Apparently I have the sense of humor or an 11 year old Scot.

              -K
              • Re: HELL (does not exist)

                Sat, November 29, 2008 - 9:29 PM
                I used to call my son a little bugger all the time up until we were going to visit his grandparents in Scotland and then his dad warned me that in Scotland "to bugger" meant to fuck someone in the rear end and it probably wasn't a good thing to call him around his grandparents.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: HELL (does not exist)

                  Sat, November 29, 2008 - 9:44 PM
                  LMFAO, Yewni!

                  See? That's what I'm talkin about. Did ya ever see that movie "Saving Grace"? It's probably funnier for those of us that've been exposed to the U.K. cultures, but it was another one of those occasions where I laughed til I cried and almost pissed my pants all due to cultural *isms*.

                  Anyway, you have a little bugger and I have a little bug...that's just WRONG on so many levels.

                  -K
                • Re: HELL (does not exist)

                  Sun, November 30, 2008 - 12:26 PM
                  "Bugger" is commonly used in Australia too, "silly bugger" being quite popular and not particularly mean and quite often affectionate (though certainly indicative that one things someone is being a bit of a fool). It's not polite but it's no big deal either (but then the same could be said of "fuck" in Canada, "fucken' eh" being the quintessential Canadian sign of approval - though that could be "fucken' A", I've never actually seen it written down).

                  I guess it's a bit more contentious in Scotland than the UK or Australia!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: HELL (does not exist)

                    Tue, December 2, 2008 - 8:48 PM
                    <"Bugger" is commonly used in Australia too, "silly bugger" being quite popular and not particularly mean and quite often affectionate>

                    Too true :)
      • Re: HELL (does not exist)

        Sun, November 30, 2008 - 10:09 PM
        >>>recently threatened... going to "hell"...

        uhm - was this threat done around here? by someone in particular? publicly? privately? totally unrelated event to this tribe?

        was this threat meaningful to you? why bother analyzing "hell"? are you a native-english speaker? various forms of "go to hell" are hurled around in typical english dialoge that (other than various subtleties that are worth "making fun of") there is no reason to worry about it.

        thus, i would argue that the long side-track about "buggering" seems completely relevant and on-topic. "go to hell" is about as innocuous to most adult (non-religious?) people as "bugger off" is to most adult (non-homosexual?) people.

        what are YOUR thoughts, j-t?
        • Re: HELL (does not exist)

          Sun, November 30, 2008 - 11:32 PM
          No...it was of fundamental religious origin (fundie). Totally unrelated event to this tribe, yes. Not a flippant "go to hell". Which does not bother me. Any more than "bugger" or "bugger off" does....

          This was someone devoutly religious, seriously invested in "soul saving". Fire insurance for the dead.
          • Re: HELL (does not exist)

            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:21 AM
            Okie dokey, JT.

            Well, it seems someone told you something you are doing (or not doing) is going to result in your going to hell. You obviously don't agree with them. This apparently happened without the knowledge of anyone here. You respond by posting a lengthy argument refuting the existence of hell to this tribe.

            It can't come as any surprise to you that no one here had any idea what the fuck this was about. My unsolicited advice would be to provide a little context for such a post in the future, unless your goal was simply to confuse and instigate.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: HELL (does not exist)

              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:41 AM
              "My unsolicited advice would be to provide a little context for such a post in the future, unless your goal was simply to confuse and instigate."

              Exactly. That's why I posted that bit about passive-aggression. If I'd had some context to go along with the various descriptions of HELL then I might've been better able to discuss the topic. I just read it as a conversation starter...a food for thought sort of post, and because I've studied various mythologies and religions I picked up what I could and offered some dialog on those bits.

              My response would've been much different if I'd known that some fundi Christian was telling J.T. that he was going to HELL. I would've no doubt come in ready to defend and support J.T. because I absolutely abhor that form of self-righteousness (and well, nearly any form of it but the Christian fundamentalist schtick bugs me more than most other forms). I might've offered up a personal story of my own that was very similar to his, (my aunt and uncle used to repeatedly announce that I was going to hell) and perhaps the nature of this thread would've drifted in completely different ways. No way to know now, though. And sadly, J.T. seems to be walking away with this perception that we're all a bunch of meanies...despite various attempts to explain WHY he received the responses he did based on how he presented the topic.

              Oy.

              Take this however you want, J.T., but you seem to be exhibiting the same level of close-mindedness and alienation tactics that your *friend* who told you to go to hell, or that you are going to hell, exhibited with you.

              -K
  • Re: HELL

    Sat, November 29, 2008 - 3:42 PM
    This is really fascinating, J T. Thanks for posting it. It seems as if Christianity as we know it isn't really Christian! I suspected as much.
  • Re: HELL

    Sat, November 29, 2008 - 5:37 PM
    Yeah read Dante's Inferno. That was considered the real dope by the Church and they glomed onto the bitch as quick as they did the Yule to sell their wares.

    JSin
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: HELL

      Sat, November 29, 2008 - 6:44 PM
      There is also the issue of Hasatan- aka "the satan" as 'ha' is the definite article which basically renders this a title rather than a name- in the Old Testament and Satan in the New Testament. In the O.T. this Hasatan character is basically God's trickster. He does the bidding of God and is even mentioned as being among "the sons of God" in Job 1-2. Though he's not mentioned as being one of God's sons, just sort of there...perhaps as a guest?

      Job 1-2
      19 "Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21 until a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' 22 'How?' the LORD asked him. He replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then the LORD said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.'"

      In any case, there is no mention of hell associated with this character at all. That concept doesn't reveal itself until the N.T. and Jesus paints a very different picture of this character in Matthew 12:26 where he spoke of a kingdom of the devil as well as a kingdom of God (implying that just as God exists, so must the devil). This shift seems far more similar to the mythological character of Hades, ruler of the underworld, or nether-world which is often referred to as hades domain or just Hades. Sophocles wrote that Hades "enriches himself with our sighs and our tears" which sounds a heck of alot like the N.T. version of Satan, if ya ask me.

      As far as why I find this a fitting topic to discuss here, extreme honesty, for me anyway, doesn't exist only in how I perceive myself or how I interact in this world, but also exists in the cultural paradigms that have framed my perceptions and because of this, my interactions. It's important to me to de-mythologize those myths that have been framed dishonestly-- or with less than completely honest agendas-- in order to view them objectively and decide for myself if I want to continue to be affected by them. Of course, we'll never truly know what each of the various translators of the bible had in mind, but by comparing them to each other and to our current culturally accepted perceptions (and mis-perceptions) I think we can at least arrive at the fact that they are myths and glean from them what we find most important. And for me, Hell isn't all that important. Nor is Satan. I have concluded that they were constructs intended to a-) keep folks in line through fear, and b-) fuse earlier mythologies into Christian one's for the simple fact that they were already in place before Christianity came along...just made the whole idea of Christianity a little easier to understand/swallow at the time.

      -K
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: HELL

        Sat, November 29, 2008 - 6:53 PM
        Of course, swallowing butter and bacon fat tastes much better but are probably equally as dangerous as swallowing Satan and Hell in the long run. So for those canonical butter believers out there (all hail Elaine), and the newer reformation branch of bacon fat believers, I'm willing to try both til one or the other burns me or fattens my fanny too much.

        -K
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: HELL

    Sun, November 30, 2008 - 12:01 PM
    When I was a kid, my Grandmother used to say we were all "going to hell in a handbasket". I'm STILL waiting to see that big-ass handbasket!
    • Re: HELL

      Sun, November 30, 2008 - 12:31 PM
      I have always loved "going to hell in a handbasket", it sounds so lady-like and civilized somehow. Does anyone know where the expression comes from? (Apart from Mean Kitty's grandma!)
      • Re: HELL

        Sun, November 30, 2008 - 12:44 PM
        • Re: HELL

          Sun, November 30, 2008 - 12:51 PM
          Thanks JSin...Oh Mighty Bacon Greaser of the Gods!
          • Re: HELL

            Sun, November 30, 2008 - 1:11 PM
            Here ya go, Mean Kitty.

            people.tribe.net/bitermonk...d6fa7ae673
            • Re: HELL

              Sun, November 30, 2008 - 1:14 PM
              That's awesome Elaine~!
              • Re: HELL

                Sun, November 30, 2008 - 7:33 PM
                Judging by how this thread stays so perfectly on topic...is there something I do not know about this Tribe?
                • Re: HELL

                  Sun, November 30, 2008 - 10:02 PM
                  >>>is there something i do not know about this tribe?

                  uhm - if you are asking for information - then youll have to be a bit more specific. if you are asking with an "agenda", then youll have to spell it out - afaict, ALL tribes do have agendas.

                  the tribe-description here talks about "extreme" honesty. beyond that - a tribe is no less than the sum of its parts - sometimes it can rise-above the sum... here, the sum is oftentimes accused of being represented by multiple-similar-viewpoints (ie - cliquey) but that repetitive-belief-system pretty much applies to ALL tribes imo.

                  i know that i read the original topic, digested the information, and did not have anything that seemed interesting to add... was there an original query that was in the OP that i missed? is there some reason that you care about where the topic of conversation has drifted off to? if you are truly keen to keep it "on topic" and guide the conversation, then you will need to be much-more of a "parent" to the thread...

                  however (speaking of things you might not know) i might warn you that it is considered very poor form to delete a topic - once it has been responded to. even tho you might indeed be the "mother" or parent trying to abort an ill-formed thread; the truth is that once the topic has been responded-to it has passed the "no-abortion" limit around here... this definition of "life" for a thread is actually fairly common-knowledge nowadays, but it does bear repeating if you are a newbie... thus, i would suggest that you come-back-in and enjoy the way the thread has evolved with (hopefully) a sense of humor - and if you are not feeling humorous, then to start over and try again...

                  practice makes perfect... in my case, some people around here might claim that my practicing has made me into a perfect a$$... lol. good luck, h.
                • Re: HELL

                  Sun, November 30, 2008 - 10:55 PM
                  <<Judging by how this thread stays so perfectly on topic...is there something I do not know about this Tribe?>>

                  Yeah, thread drifts happen. Get used to it.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: HELL

                    Sun, November 30, 2008 - 11:43 PM
                    "thread drifts"?

                    I see, this is actually a social club...where people might know each other outside of Tribe (possibly)? And what does such socialization have to do with honesty, extreme or otherwise? And how exactly does the moniker apply, if it does? It sounds like some bars I have visited half an hour before closing time....imo. And that does not bode well for any sort of honesty that I know of. No offense.
                    • Re: HELL

                      Sun, November 30, 2008 - 11:48 PM
                      Hey JT how long have you actually been here? Read any past threads? Go back in the way back threads from six months ago, a year ago, two years ago and see if what you are already deciding is correct.

                      • Re: HELL

                        Sun, November 30, 2008 - 11:57 PM
                        The threads in this place are like the freakin' Library of Congress....
                        • Re: HELL

                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:07 AM
                          i dunno. this j t guy seems fairly on the level. while i personally don't find hell to be a particularly interesting topic for discussion, he does seem to've been trying to start an honest discussion. intellectual discourse is what he says he's here for, & this topic backs that up in my mind.

                          j t, i wouldn't take this all too personally. my feeling, which of course may be wrong, is that everyone here is still a little worked up over that business w/SAM = SAM.

                          huh. typing that out just now, i can't help but wonder if SAM = SAM isn't some sort of math genius. his proposition is solid. sam = sam. you can't really argue w/that.
                        • Re: HELL

                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 9:03 AM
                          >> The threads in this place are like the freakin' Library of Congress....<

                          Welcome to an extremely honest level of Dante's Inferno, where things--once brought up--are thrashed out by a bunch of irreverent, independent-minded thinkers and feelers and taken off in all kinds of directions, like a Jorge Luis Borges story gone bad, Abandon all hope all ye who enter here... ;-)
                          • Unsu...
                             

                            Re: HELL

                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 9:57 AM
                            I dunno...it seems fairly simple to 'get along' here. It just requires a few areas of self-censorship. These are only MY observations, but I see a level of extreme honesty in each of them:

                            1-) Do not try to *force* whatever your particular brand of fundie morality or new age enlightenment is on everyone unless you are fully
                            prepared to have your soft white underbelly fully exposed, be picked apart, placed under a microscope, fed just enough to keep you around long enough to fulfill the needs of those that enjoy examining/interrogating such bizarre specimens before being reintroduced into the world-at-large... not necessarily any more enlightened but hopefully with the ability to poke and prod your-very-own-self from that moment forward. (Those that do acquire this skill eventually become so addicted to it that we have to periodically wrestle the prods away from them lest they poke something useful and necessary). The extreme honesty in this scenario can be found in the refusal to be *forced*...opening up a topic for discussion is a far more honest approach than shoving one's personal hyperbole down everyone's throats.

                            2-) If you have something to say, by all means SAY IT, (keeping #1 in mind) but please don't expect that everyone will share your opinion or even take it seriously. Some might, some might not. And if/ when an argument ensues any personal attacks will be treated as such, but usually result in thread drift and lots of silliness on the part of those that refuse to engage in flame war/ troll tactics. The extreme honesty here is in saying what you mean and meaning what you say, and allowing for/appreciating other perspectives even if they're not your own.

                            3-) And when/if it appears that there is a clique of some sort, I assure you that EH doesn't have a 'herd mentality' as every single person here is very different. But because many of us have been here for quite some time we've come to recognize certain traits as being trollish (even among those of us that've been here for a while) and tend to, completely independent of each other, become intolerant of those traits. When such issues arise and the troll in question refers to EH members as some sort of clique or herd they will more or less create that dynamic simply by attempting to alienate themselves and play the martyr role. The extreme honesty in this has to do with the intolerance of emotional manipulation by those seeking self-righteousness or self-justification by pitting themselves against *everyone* as if we are a mere herd of sheeple.

                            And then of course, becuase we are all so different we all have different sensitivities and different triggers. For me, passive-aggressive communication (and just really bad spelling and grammar) tends to set me off. That's just ME. Fifi, Elaine, Anne, quel, Younie, meankitty, dave, harold, Josh, JSin, and Marpa (just to mention those that have contributed to this thread) all have their own set of triggers.

                            It appears that Younie likes to get to the heart of the matter and asks pertinent questions in an effort to do that.

                            harold, for the most part, really enjoys playing devil's advocate...and he does this with EVERYONE, not just you. No reason to take it personally.

                            Elaine has little patience for folks that have no sense of humor.

                            dave seems to really dislike having his words and sentiments twisted around in order to serve some other agenda. (IOW, he gave you a fucking compliment and yet you still refuse to acknowledge)

                            and quel, I imagine, is sick of people threatening to leave whenever they don't hear what they want, or have their personal agendas met, and perhaps equally as sick of them not leaving after threatening to do so. (I feel that way myself, quel, so if I'm inadvertently projecting this onto you, please forgive)

                            Just to name a few....

                            And being outright defensive is probably a small trigger for everyone both here and IRL, as every act of defense is perceived as an of offense. So, while I could be totally wrong- and I do leave margin for that- these are my observations. Take them and do what you will. If ya wanna send them down the trash disposal, I won't take it personally. Just please get off the 'everyone is against me' and 'no one understand me' trip. It's old, bring, been done many times before and certainly doesn't have ANYTHING at all to do with extreme honesty.

                            -K

                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:00 AM
                              Oh, and just for the record, I have not met a single person in this tribe IRL.

                              -K
                              • Re: HELL

                                Tue, December 2, 2008 - 1:20 AM
                                >>Oh, and just for the record, I have not met a single person in this tribe IRL<<

                                I've met lots of people from this tribe and so far they seem pretty much the same in meatspace as here.
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:00 AM
                              <<It appears that Younie likes to get to the heart of the matter and asks pertinent questions in an effort to do that. >>

                              I just figure I might as well say what I am thinking in an Extreme Honesty tribe.

                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:17 AM
                              K - "Just please get off the 'everyone is against me' and 'no one understand me' trip. It's old, bring, been done many times before and certainly doesn't have ANYTHING at all to do with extreme honesty."

                              Besides, we just voted Elaine~ to be the EH Martyr. We needed someone stable and solid who'd stick with it for a while, who can go the distance as a martyr...you know, suffer a little for fuck's sake! Damn, the girl's already going to hell in a handbasket (so is clearly doing something wrong, for which she should be punished). Martyrdom is boring, peeps can't come in here and act all superficially martyr-like and then run away when it gets all tough...we demand better....we demand BUTTER!!!!....yeesh, we get a lot of fast food messiah's in here! Less Margerine, More Butter!!!
                              • Re: HELL

                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:28 AM
                                I am the fucking martyr in this tribe, not you JT.


                                Get the fuck over it, and I now proclaim complete open season on the next person who does this exact same thing. Cause I Am fucking over it and in the Haterarium, we dont put up with stupid people. We just hate on them.
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: HELL

                                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:54 AM
                                  Um, Elaine...martyrs aren't generally so assertive. If you're gonna be our martyr ya need to start injecting some false humility into the mix. Or, I suppose you could just hate everyone and tell us all that we just don't get you. But you'll have to carry around a gallon of some flammable compound and a match for believability's sake (or just threaten to leave and hold the match just above your head). Sorry...but being the martyr for a collective requires these things. Otherwise how are we gonna use you for our own eventual redemption? And I was SO looking forward to that part of it.

                                  -K
                                  • Re: HELL

                                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:03 AM
                                    . And sadly, J.T. seems to be walking away with this perception that we're all a bunch of meanies...despite various attempts to explain WHY he received the responses he did based on how he presented the topic. <<<

                                    No, he came in with that perception already and his agenda in place.

                                    I am a Assertive Martyr. Don't question me and my undying willingness to give and give to you unworthy naysayers who don't understand my enlighten ways and continue to ignore my attempts to help you all out of the murky underworld of boringness.
                                    • Re: HELL

                                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:11 AM
                                      Elaine~ I know you suffer terribly when directing your followers to immolate themselves using nothing but butter, a candle and a diet rich in brussel sprouts and beans - all angels are blue.... What more could one ask for out of one's martyr/guru than suffering for us while we suffer to be worthy of her. You are the best martyr EVAR!
                                    • Re: HELL

                                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:25 AM
                                      <<No, he came in with that perception already and his agenda in place. >>

                                      Exactly. If he wanted discussion he could have continued on from my very first post. He could have asked me what I meant by hell is other people, if I meant what Sartre meant when he said it or if I even felt I knew what it really meant or if I was just posting it for humor's sake. I'm not saying he needed to follow those exact conversation points. I'm just pointing out that the opportunity for earnest conversation was there from the very first response that he got and in many others that followed but instead of jumping at those opportunities to converse he just decided to sling mud.
                                  • Quota

                                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:05 AM
                                    Just a friendly reminder, Elaine, you have not shamed us with a post of crystalline insight all day. There are a certain number of "I am enlightened and you are an unworthy mouthbreather" posts required per diem to maintain your martyr status.

                                    It's lonely at the top, huh?
                                    • Re: Quota

                                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:05 AM
                                      Thank you.
                                      • Re: Quota

                                        Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:11 AM
                                        I hire someone to do those posts for me, but I see that they failed me. Like all of you have failed me. Again. Constant failings from you people.
                                        • Unsu...
                                           

                                          Re: Quota

                                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:35 AM
                                          "Like all of you have failed me. Again. Constant failings from you people."

                                          Ah, now that's more like it.

                                          I'm almost ready to sign up and prostrate myself before you, all mighty Elaine of the tasty transfats. But before I make my final decision, is this one of those modern new fangled voting type things? Do I need to be among the majority, and if so is it a 2/3 vote? And if so again, what method do you use to tally such votes? Between butter and margarine there is a clear distinction, but what about the 'I Can't Believe it's Not...' category?

                                          Or, can I simply hand over my everlasting soul to your buttery goodness without fear of reprimand in the ass cheeks? IOW, will you care for ME as much as I will care for you or is this just another ruse designed to make me believe all will be well if I sign up, when in actuality you require far more and eventual liposuction and a triple bypass will be the only way to continue being your minion?

                                          Hey, cut me some slack. I SAID I had agnostic tendencies.

                                          -K
                                          • Re: Quota

                                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:41 AM
                                            -K - Hey, cut me some slack. I SAID I had agnostic tendencies.


                                            For that fine piece of preemptive passive yet aggressive groveling, I think -K deserves at least a little pat of butter.
                                            • Unsu...
                                               

                                              Re: Quota

                                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:55 AM
                                              Yay for me! But I must insist that it come from free range, bovine growth hormone free cows that have a pesticide free diet. Oh, and just in case I didn't use the word "free" often enough, please understand that I expect this pat of butter to be completely free.

                                              For further pats, please send to the wikipedia url address I intend to have sometime during Elaine's reign. All other butter better be bonafide for Betty for her bitter butter batters.

                                              -K
                                              • Re: Quota

                                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:03 PM
                                                What!?! Assault and buttery!!! You and your playdoh pants better back off missy!

                                                Oh, sorry, wrong channel. We will now break for a message from our sponsor.....


                                                "I can't believe it's not EnLIghTeNMeNT!"

                                                "I gave up creamcheese because it was all fag hags and gay angels from Philly - who knew the Philadelphia Story was about creamcheese? - but now I've discovered butter my life has changed!"

                                                "How so Maryjane?"

                                                "Butter simply makes everything better....it's butterriffic!!!"

                                                "We can't believe it's not EnLIghTeNMeNT!"

                                                *This message brought to you by the Dairy Board and Sacred Cows the world over.

                                                "
                                              • Re: Quota

                                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:23 PM
                                                Ahh still attempting to worship at the weakness that is butter. The bovine fat is demonstratively weaker than the almighty fat god Bacon grease.

                                                The almighty bacon has no need for these new fangled things like Trans fats or substitutes. Glory upon the purity of unadulterated rendering of greasy goodness.

                                                Take for example the flavoring power of the Mighty porcine gods. One mere tablespoon of the luscious fatty grace upon any chosen food exponentially increases the tastiness. Where as the weak and anemic cow excretions take nearly 1/3 of a cup and still impart arguably lesser fatty nirvana.

                                                The mere presence of Margarine is further proof that Butter is a mere idol. A myth. Easily copied. Only a fat that has no substitute can stand on the heights of Fatty Divinity.

                                                And the lord Pig said unto His worshipers. Do not accept those fats unto thy mouth for they are false fats. And do not allow the non believes to place before you replications of my holy goodness. For my name is the grease and the nonbelievers shall fall pray to their folly and shall be cast down from my eye as unclean. Only in the purity of my rendering shall thee find salvation.

                                                JSin
                                                • Unsu...
                                                   

                                                  Re: Quota

                                                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:29 PM
                                                  And apparently there is no vegetarian sub for either...but at least with butter (I'm slow to join, but will soon be there) there's no actual killing involved.
                                                  -K
                                                  • Unsu...
                                                     

                                                    Re: Quota

                                                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:35 PM
                                                    Oh crap...gone are teh brief days of a monotheistic butter worship. Our wondrous Elaine has expressed love for a male, making this a polytheism. Now we'll have to construct all manner of explanations as to why and how the great Elaine is divine and NOT just a trans-fatty slut. Watch out, this could get ugly.

                                                    I don't suppose you have a mystical uterus up your sleeve, do ya? That seems to work when all else fails to explain.

                                                    -K
                                                    • Re: Quota

                                                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:37 PM
                                                      -K - But we have BUTTER! It will lubricate the truth.

                                                      If one has a uterus up their sleeve does it mean.... Oh, hell, even I don't know where to go with that.....
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:05 PM
                              "and quel, I imagine, is sick of people threatening to leave whenever they don't hear what they want, or have their personal agendas met, and perhaps equally as sick of them not leaving after threatening to do so. (I feel that way myself, quel, so if I'm inadvertently projecting this onto you, please forgive) "

                              Actually, I don't feel that way at all. I don't feel like J T has an agenda. I have seen posts in other tribes and have witnessed no malarky that I can recall. What I see is that a thread was started by a new member and a less than welcoming response was put up, and J T got hurt feelings, which has opened him/her up to potential attacks.

                              What I would like to see are more threads about interesting topics like the one posted. It's all well and good to explain what this tribe is like to a newbie, but I have to say, I felt like I had to go through a hazing when I 1st got here because the name of the tribe,and the description are misleading to new members. I say cut J T some slack.
                    • Re: HELL

                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:06 AM
                      You know, JT may have hit on something. Perhaps Extreme Honesty isn't an appropriate name for the tribe anymore. You could also thwart all potential questions about what EH means to you as well as accusations that you're not being true to the tribe. Of course, there might just be a sentimental value to it, but it's worth pondering, no?

                      Maybe Rich could just change the description?
                      • Re: HELL

                        Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:08 AM
                        i'm all for changing the name. i think it sounds fucking stupid. are we sponsored by mountain dew?
                        • Re: HELL

                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:22 AM
                          Wow, so...I was right. Whew! I can go elsewhere for honesty...thanks. Good to know, but somewhat disappointing...
                          • Re: HELL

                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:27 AM
                            Somewhat nefarious end to my first posted topic here...so, later!
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:28 AM
                              Dave,what did you say to scare the newbie off? Anne is going to be mad, she was saving him for a snack later.
                              • Re: HELL

                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:33 AM
                                i said he seemed forthright in his desire for intellectual discourse. what was i thinking? it's like i paid him a compliment or something. i can see why he'd be offended & leave, now that i look back. oh well, you know what they say about hindsight.

                                there'll be more snacks sauntering in through the door any day now, i can just feel it.
                                • Re: HELL

                                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 4:29 PM
                                  "...you know what they say about hindsight."

                                  It always shows your ass?
                                  • Re: HELL

                                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 7:47 PM
                                    "...you know what they say about hindsight."

                                    It always shows your ass?
                                    -------------------------------------------------
                                    oh, nice, josh. real fucking mature. i try to make a point & then you have to go and....oh, wait a minute. you have a point. yeah. my ass. yeah!
                      • Re: HELL

                        Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:26 AM
                        Then lets change the name to Elaine's Hatertarium.
                        • Re: HELL

                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:27 AM
                          that sounds lovely, elaine. you have my vote.
                          • Re: HELL

                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:33 AM
                            I take that back...pure out and out aggression, nothing passive about it whatsoever....
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:35 AM
                              scaring off newbies? for fuck's sake, j t, did you even read what i wrote? oy.
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:35 AM
                              Everything negative I have heard about this Tribe turns out to be true...
                              • Re: HELL

                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:37 AM
                                Who said I was scared...by twisted keyboard jockeys? Nothing to be scared of, pitied, possibly.
                                • Re: HELL

                                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:39 AM
                                  oh, right. chasing off newbies. didn't mean to misquote. anyhow, um, no, chasing off newbies isn't part of the fun, that i know of. if you read back to what i wrote here, you'll see i was sticking up for you.
                                • Re: HELL

                                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:08 PM
                                  Never mind, J T has gone into rage mode.

                                  I do think, though that sometimes this tribe scares away potential members. Unfortunately, not the crazy ones.
                                  I'm not trying to attack you guys, I just think it's something to consider if u would like new members to keep things fresh.
                                  • Re: HELL

                                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:09 PM
                                    Quel, if you read eariler posts from me in this thread, you will see I was all informative and niceish for a while.
                                    • Re: HELL

                                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:12 PM
                                      I wasn't trying to paint everyone with a broad brush, Elaine. I saw your posts and enjoyed them.
                                      • Re: HELL

                                        Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:31 PM
                                        quel - Well don't we all deserve to be widely painted with buttery goodness by the great basting brush of the unireverse? Er, to be serious for a moment, I get your point.

                                        Maybe we SHOULD change the name from EH or be clearer in the tribe description? Any suggestions? Or would this contrary to tribe protocol Rich? Personally I don't care if it stays the same or changes, to be extremely honest I'm not attached to the title of the tribe but I can also see how changing it due to the trolls complaints may be lame too (and not actually make them stop since they're trolls not contientious objectors or ever actually being honest about much).
                                        • Re: HELL

                                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:41 PM
                                          EH is now Elaine's Haterarium.

                                          How many times do I have to keep telling you?


                                          God dammit, you people always ignore me!
                                          • Re: HELL

                                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:45 PM
                                            Only to increase your powers of martyrdom Elaine!
                                            • Re: HELL

                                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:50 PM
                                              Every time you ignore Elaine, an angel plays the world's tiniest violin with their wingtips.
                                              • Re: HELL

                                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 5:59 PM
                                                Every time you ignore Elaine, an angel plays the world's tiniest violin with their wingtips<<

                                                I know where I can find a rabbit, and I know where you live. NO ignoring me, lady.
                                                • Re: HELL

                                                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 6:56 PM
                                                  <<I know where I can find a rabbit, and I know where you live.>>

                                                  OOh! Get one of Angi's and make Moose a stew! He'd be so grateful.
                                                  • Re: HELL

                                                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 8:01 PM
                                                    Total waste of bunny.... Make sure it is young and tender then roast the bugger over.... hmmmm.... alder, plum, and oak. A nice Bacon grease and garlic baste.

                                                    Serve it with deep fried parsnips and some smashed potatoes with chives

                                                    Fuck stewed bunny.

                                                    JSin
                                        • Re: HELL

                                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:50 PM
                                          I can think of someone who could brush butter all over me.

                                          I think that looking at a name change as being forced by trolls goes into the realm of perceiving things as a non-existent power struggle. We do learn from our enemies and our critics if we're smart. Overall, I don't think it reflects the vibe of the tribe and sets up false expectations. This can cause problems. This tribe isn't rules by a simple tenet of just being honest. It's a silly tribe sometimes and a thoughtful tribe sometimes. The name indicates a more crunchy granola, find-your-inner-child vibe that doesn't fit, I think. Notice that lot of the trolls are crystal waving rainbow chasers.
                                          • Re: HELL

                                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 1:01 PM
                                            quel - "The name indicates a more crunchy granola, find-your-inner-child vibe that doesn't fit, I think. Notice that lot of the trolls are crystal waving rainbow chasers."

                                            I tend to agree. I'm actually having a similar "discussion" in another tribe regarding the description vs the reality. Though I'm all down for renaming it Elaine's Hatertarium (I do insist on the oblique tater reference, all hail the mighty spud! They go very well with butter. Okay! Okay! I admit it, I'm a pantheist!!! Now leave me alone!)
                                            • Re: HELL

                                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 1:02 PM
                                              This tribe IS a bit like lord of the flies so anyone wearing My little Pony glasses may find their inner child doesn't fair so well. Mmmm, piggy..... Oh, right, where was I....
                                  • Re: HELL

                                    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:30 PM
                                    >>>gone into rage mode

                                    hmmm - personally, since it is monday at noon - there are all kinds of RL reasons that i can imagine for j-t to be conspicuously silent...

                                    as someone who has no circadian rhythm that is discernable, _I_ can say that we might just see him come back and try to understand (again) "what he was missing"...

                                    or, for the more-"i-cant-believe-its-not"-tritely-version... if you drop a back-buttered cat, it will just twirl and hover 6 inches above the ground... lol.
                                    • Re: HELL

                                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:52 PM
                                      I wasn't referring to his absence. I have to get on with my day as well. I hope he can come back and everyone can relax a bit, cut each other some slack and not be so easy to offend.
                        • Re: HELL

                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 8:13 AM
                          Elaine~ Only if we can have fries with that shake..... Elaine's Hater and Tatertarium. Come on down, we butter our bacon! Bacon will save your sinner's ass!*


                          *other body parts may not be redeemable, please save your receipt for a full and partial refund. Trampling and battery not included in sale price.
                          • Re: HELL

                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 8:40 AM
                            Oh sweet Jeebus.

                            I leave you people alone for one day, and a Haterarium franchise pops up. Those things are worse than Starbucks, I tell ya.

                            But this all leads me to wonder: since we have already established a religious system exalting That Holiest of Dairy Condiments in its quest to uphold the sanctity of All That Is Delicious On English Muffins, resisting the Wickedly Delicious Porcine Tempter...

                            Could Hell be defined, then, as Margarine? Or have I now invoked the Vile Polyunsaturated Beast simply by saying its name?
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 9:41 AM
                              We all know marge is evil - if that tower of blue hair from hell isn't indication enough, look at who she's married to....!?!? Proof of evil is just how easily Margerine spreads it's foul slime over everything straight from the fridge. It's unnatural!?! It's unholy!?! It's NOT butter! Ahhhhhh.......

                              Yeah, the world is lousy with Hatertatertoriums. Where are all the churches of butter? The temples of ghee? We must spread the word!

                              *on a slightly related note, in Quebec margerine had to - legally!! - be bright yellow/orange (or no colour!) to distinguish it from butter...do not underestimate the power of the dairy board...they've got milk!!
                    • Re: HELL

                      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:40 AM
                      No JT Thread Drift is a common and widely documented phenomenon from clear back on text only BBS's. It is merely an observation that is frequent enough to likely have the basis of a scientific theory. It is not a social club thing... Go to any tribe, newsgroup, forum or what have you and analyze the posts. You will find it is an observation that in general can be found to be true.

                      A thread that does not drift is in all probability one that is answering an empirical question that lacks commentary or a pretty dull thread. Even in those cases it is not unusual.

                      JSin
                      • Re: HELL

                        Mon, December 1, 2008 - 1:10 AM
                        ...is posting anything in EH

                        Yeah, I see....after reading some threads. Just a few regulars out of the 1700 plus members have made this a private party. Like some weird flypaper for the unwary....
                        • Re: HELL

                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 2:10 AM
                          >>>flypaper

                          lol. yeah, interesting analogy... flies usually congregate around $hi7 - which is also in abundance here... obviously - youre getting into the understanding of whats up... welcome - and if you wanna be an out-n-proud eh-member, then youre on-your-way... youll have to eventually decide what "persona" youre portraying here - whether by choice, by accident, or by alien-overlords - you might indeed have arrived in hell... lol

                          to be fair, ive been around for a LONG time - and i come/go for months on end... my usual assumption when dealing with this tribe is that i am allowed to be "brutal" with my honesty... (which is MY form of extremism) and thus i am often brutalized-right-back... im not sure whether id recommend you trying a similar tack - but some form of "extremism" is going to be applied to you/your-posts (whether you choose to be extreme, or not).

                          good luck - and i dont remember your other posts (my memory is finite and this tribe is never really anything i care to remember to begin with), so i guess (based solely on this thread) that i should say again...

                          welcome to hell - have a nice day. ;-)
                          • Re: HELL

                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 2:14 AM
                            ps - maybe your fundie girl / friend (did you say female? idk) would think that your arrival here is indeed symbolic of your "problem" - and thus, to be "saved" you might have to return-to-her and be-cured... roflmao...
                        • Re: HELL

                          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 6:55 AM
                          God! How many friggen alt profiles do you have?

                          Is anyone actually fooled believing that JT is just a poor innocent newbie who just wandered in here and is suddenly so disappointed to find out that some of us might actually joke around with one another and have thread drifts? Geez I dare say he is just one post away from using the c word. Of course I mean "clique."


                          Puleeeeeeez!

                          We've seen plenty of newbies come in and start posting who somehow manage to just post and not start throwing out accusations and they do just fine. We've also seen the old time shit stirrers in fluffy new alt profiles return again and again to make accusations and somehow they don't see that their behavior towards the people in this tribe is a self fulfilling prophesy. It is lame and trite.

                          If you want honesty then start posting honestly. You aren't going to get honesty by donning an alt profile and acting like a jerk.
                          • Re: HELL

                            Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:18 PM
                            "We've seen plenty of newbies come in and start posting who somehow manage to just post and not start throwing out accusations and they do just fine."

                            Yep. JSin and K are two good examples of peeps who showed up and did their best to fit in. Not agree with what everybody says or how they say it, because they surely don't. But they made an effort to correct misunderstandings as we got to know them rather than simply lashing out at us as fascists or clique-elitists.

                            Assuming that everybody's being shitty to you really is insulting, I think. Likewise I think it's insulting for people to immediately question a new poster's motives rather than making an attempt at conversation. I think giving a little bit of the benefit of the doubt goes a long way.
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 12:24 PM
                              Sooo, Josh, you are saying we should just give peeps a chance?
                              • Re: HELL

                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 4:15 PM
                                "Sooo, Josh, you are saying we should just give peeps a chance?"

                                As long as they're the duck ones. The bunny ones give me nightmares.
                            • Re: HELL

                              Mon, December 1, 2008 - 1:12 PM
                              If J_T wants the benefit of the doubt then sure he can have it. But in all honesty I must confess that I highly suspect him of being this guy: tribes.tribe.net/extremeho...9dc5b2c91e

                              tribes.tribe.net/extremeho...6e5195ab6e

                              If he says he isn't and he just wants to talk then great. Let's talk. I mean really if he is that dude the worst he can do is go and delete his threads again which is hardly that big of a deal.
                              • Re: HELL

                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 3:11 PM
                                Where ever do you find these things, Yuni? You're obviously a more skilled tribester than I am!
                                I am now suspicious as well given that Sunshine and SAM=SAM are in that tribe.
                                • Re: HELL

                                  Wed, December 3, 2008 - 7:31 AM
                                  Don't forget . (aka !Alex! aka 350ppm and whatever else he's called himself). I don't know if anyone else has had this crew pop up in other tribes to do their thing (you know, some vaguely new age passive aggressive thing of varying degrees of lucidity and ideological coherence or just flat out vivid manifestations of psychosis and delusions of grandeur) but they seem to like to spread their hate of EH and those resistant to their attempts to convert around tribe. I know Yuni had some issues with one of the EH trolls, has anyone else?

                                  You know, one of the things I like the most about this tribe is that most people here are intelligent and literate enough - and self confident enough - to be imperfect and just honestly human. New age zombies kinda give me nightmares if I think about them too much, they're like Stepford Wives or something. Probably because I know they'd burn me at the stake as a heretic given half the chance to act on their passive aggressions. Or worse, eat away at my brains until I too became a zombie and could only WrITe LIIlk tHIs abOUT tuRNing ON thE LIght...
                                  • Re: HELL

                                    Wed, December 3, 2008 - 7:41 AM
                                    Yeah, he is in that tribe as well. His name is changed to "." for now.
                                    • Re: HELL

                                      Wed, December 3, 2008 - 7:47 AM
                                      I think that's the name he started out with and then he just kept trying to hide who he is and pretend to be someone else. Didn't he come in and out of here under his various guises or did he just reappear when sunshine made her attempt to spread her her gospel here? (He was like a puppy panting at my heels for a while there it may have been other tribes he was doing this in.)
                              • Re: HELL

                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 4:14 PM
                                "If he says he isn't and he just wants to talk then great. Let's talk. I mean really if he is that dude the worst he can do is go and delete his threads again which is hardly that big of a deal."

                                Wow...

                                Well, since the one with 177 friends isn't in this tribe, we could DEFINITELY talk shit on him. I heard he doesn't know the evil robot's name from The Black Hole. I may start a tribe dedicated to him not knowing that delicious fact.
                                • Re: HELL

                                  Mon, December 1, 2008 - 4:43 PM
                                  <<Well, since the one with 177 friends isn't in this tribe, we could DEFINITELY talk shit on him. >>

                                  No,no. I don't think I wrote very clearly. I was trying to say that if JT is who he says he is and really wants to just talk honestly then I am more than willing to accept him and engage in honest conversation. However I felt I should be very straight forward and confess that I suspect him to be an alt of Tim's. I don't have any desire to talk shit about Tim or anyone else.

                                  I just don't feel like beating around the bush.
                                  • Re: HELL

                                    Tue, December 2, 2008 - 7:35 AM
                                    "No,no. I don't think I wrote very clearly. I was trying to say that if JT is who he says he is and really wants to just talk honestly then I am more than willing to accept him and engage in honest conversation. However I felt I should be very straight forward and confess that I suspect him to be an alt of Tim's. I don't have any desire to talk shit about Tim or anyone else."

                                    Nah, there's no confusion. I was just saying we should talk shit about Tim because it's a win/win situation regardless of whether or not JT is Tim. If JT is his own self and not Tim, then JT shouldn't care about our shit talking. If JT IS Tim but doesn't cop to it, he'll have no choice but to eat the big ol' shite sammich we're serving up.

                                    I will say, though, that I didn't realize the guy you linked was THE Tim. Goddamn, that guy is nuts. I like how he's only psychic when nobody's watching. It's like the Invisible Boy in Mystery Men.
                              • Re: HELL

                                Mon, December 1, 2008 - 5:59 PM
                                Damn it kills me that EH is sooooo important to folks that it has spawned so many refugee tribes

                                I cannot for the life of me think of a state in which being nuked from a tribe would give me such pain as to try to create a competing tribe



                                JSin
                                • Re: HELL

                                  Tue, December 2, 2008 - 7:36 AM
                                  "I cannot for the life of me think of a state in which being nuked from a tribe would give me such pain as to try to create a competing tribe"

                                  Me neither.

                                  If you fuckers ever kick me out I'm'a gut you all like fish and dance in your blood.
                                  • Re: HELL

                                    Wed, December 3, 2008 - 7:56 AM
                                    Josh - you're really going to have to work on your martyr skills if you want to get kicked out. For fuck's sake, you haven't even called Rich a fascist yet. Threats about dancing in fish blood - though a nice touch - are hardly passive aggressive enough. The aggression part is fine but you need to work on the passive part - actively repress your anger so that it can seep out the edges. All of this direct expression has got to go! You may want to try that Non-Violent Communication stuff that "."/!Alex!/350ppm uses - it seems designed explicitly for maximum aggressive passiveness. I'd also like to point out that you are also slow on telling us what horrible horrible people we are. You have shown none of the necessary preludes to attempt to "save" us or make us conform to a religious - waaaaiiiiit, no.....SpIRiTUal....belief system. So, you're obviously going to have to work much harder to actually get kicked out of here Josh if you're looking forward to bloodshed and dancing.
                                    • Re: HELL

                                      Wed, December 3, 2008 - 8:47 AM
                                      "So, you're obviously going to have to work much harder to actually get kicked out of here Josh if you're looking forward to bloodshed and dancing."

                                      Alas, you are right: All of my fart/robot/fishblood chicanery didn't get me kicked out. But I must admit that that's all I got.

                                      Unless we can queue up some sort of Alex/JT passive-aggressive training montage...
                                      • Re: HELL

                                        Wed, December 3, 2008 - 9:08 AM
                                        Can you make that robot fart fish? Now THAT would be cool. I'd vote for you as messiah if you have a fish farting robot!!! If you could make it pee wine, I'd be totally in for a Messiahbot3000 (model 2112 or 333, of course, I hear the 666s tend to go berserker!)
                                        • Re: HELL

                                          Wed, December 3, 2008 - 12:20 PM
                                          I don't think it would fart fish so much as blast 'em out like it was the morning after taco night. I'd program him to be all nuts like Lew Zealand from The Muppet Show. I think that would be in keeping with creating a Messi@hb0t. The 733T model will be the only one available.
                                          • Re: HELL

                                            Wed, December 3, 2008 - 2:23 PM
                                            Josh, that sounds even cooler! (Okay, I confess to having used fish inappropriately on hapless audiences before but that's besides the point!) It's like it's the Jesusnator or something! Jesus is back and he's a ROBOT!!! You can run but you can't hide from the Messi@b0t!
  • Re: HELL

    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:11 AM
    Numbers give us structure. Hurraaaaay!!

    1. Hell, like so many other things we consider a part of Christianity, appears to have been stolen from others in an effort to suck in more people to the church. I did not know this until I read this thread but it doesn't surprise me at all. But, since I'm an Atheist, it doesn't really matter to me who made up what crazy shit.

    2. People ought not to threaten to leave this tribe. It only ever, ever, ever shows that the threatening party is ready for a fight. I don't know if this is because they really think they're going to open our eyes or if they don't give a shit about opening our eyes and are just looking for a fight. What they SHOULD do if they're unhappy here is pack up their indignance and hit the fuckin' road. Please not that this is not a statement against holding a different set of opinions, but rather a matter of accepting that which you cannot change.

    3. People fuck around a lot here. You can take it personally if you want to but you will likely end up re-reading my second point above. WE get to decide, individually, what we will take seriously and how we will address it so long as we're more or less civil. Even with all the drama I haven't really seen any personal attacks, though it seems once again that somebody's going to take it that way because we're not kissing ass or falling in line with falsely created expectations. What I have seen is a lot of constructive feedback on how EH works as well as what/who has not worked out in the past.

    4. This is the number that comes after three as long as we're talking integers.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: HELL

      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:25 AM
      And Josh, the atheist fan of integers, is a smart ass to the nth degree (just throwing in an alphabetic variable to fuck with ya, darlin). But, his brand of sarcasm often results in several posts that go something like this, "I love you, Josh!", echoed by many EH members of the female persuasion and even a few males here and there.

      If it's not too 'on topic', I'd like to respond to your 1-), Josh. Christianity has definitely stolen many aspects of other religions and cultures, but I think a lot of it is also what other cultures have infused Christianity with. In a way, it's impossible to really separate out what was intentionally stolen vs.what was merely a certain culture's perception, based on their own history. It's all so recursive and tends to circle back on itself again and again and again in successive ways. And I also consider myself an atheist, but with agnostic tendencies...in that I don't currently have any framework to reference that God DOES exist...so I go with that. But I also know that I don't know ALL there is to know about, well...anything...so I leave the door open for further evidence one way the other.

      -K
    • Re: HELL

      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:27 AM
      4.1 Rational numbers are cool too.

      3.14159265358979323846... (Pi). Irrational numbers are even cooler. (Of course, this should go before the integer 4.)
  • Re: HELL

    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 7:49 PM
    ok, um, so, by the way, i still say sam = sam must be some sort of math genius. that's probably why none of us understood him.
    • Re: HELL

      Mon, December 1, 2008 - 8:00 PM
      oh yeah, & also--i'm siding w/jsin on this whole bacon vs. butter argument.
      toast w/butter is good, but seriously...fry up a slice of bread in some bacon grease some day. you'll swear you've died & gone to heaven.
      • Re: HELL

        Mon, December 1, 2008 - 9:30 PM
        Reminds me of Homer Simpson line: "Butter up that bacon! Bacon up that sausage!"
        • Re: HELL

          Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:20 PM
          i would kill every one of you in this room for one drop of sweet sweet beer.

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