Advertisement
As obscene as it sounds, a generation or two ago, Black people were considered to be inherently ugly, stupid, unsanitary, lazy, and enslaved by creature comforts. Today, fat people are assumed to be inherently ugly, stupid, unsanitary, lazy, and enslaved by creature comforts. Such stereotypes are reinforced by both the media and the public. Even in "politically correct" circles, where one would never hear derogatory remarks about people of color, gays and lesbians, or people with disabilities, one continues to hear disparaging remarks about fat people.
Stereotypes, and the resulting prejudice, develop from a belief that a group of people share common characteristics. This belief is almost always grounded in myth. The central myth surrounding the prejudice against fat people is that, if fat people really wanted to, they could lose weight. It doesn't seem to matter that research indicates that fat people are fat because of heredity and metabolic factors; that 95-98% of all diets fail within three to five years; that much of the $33 billion that the diet industry earns annually comes at the expense of the health and well being of fat people; that more people will die from weight loss surgery than died in the Vietnam War; that yo-yo dieting makes a person fatter; that most fat people have no more choice in their size than a person does in the color of their skin. Our society, which accepts that in the bell curve of the human species, some people will be shorter or taller than average, and some people will be thinner than average, cannot accept that some people will be fatter than average.
This climate of non-acceptance creates a "blame the victim" mentality, wherein myths and stereotypes are used to justify treating fat people as second-class citizens. This has a devastating effect on the quality of life for fat people. Fat people are discriminated against in employment, in that they are denied employment, denied promotions and raises, denied benefits, and sometimes fired, all because of their weight. Fat people are discriminated against in education, in that they are not accepted into graduate programs, and are harassed and expelled because of their weight. Fat people cannot adopt children, solely because of their weight. Fat people are denied access to adequate medical care, in that they are denied treatment, misdiagnosed, harassed, and treated as though every medical condition, from a sore throat to a broken bone, is a weight-related condition. Fat people are denied access to public accommodations, such as public transportation, airline travel, theatres, and restaurants because seating is not available for them.
Because fat people are fair game for ridicule and public humiliation, they face substantial social discrimination. Epithets are screamed at fat people; ice cream cones are snatched out of the hands of fat people "for their own good"; fat people are run off of public beaches and out of health spas, because they do not look "acceptable".
This discrimination takes an enormous toll on a fat person's self-esteem, particularly when the person is a child. Unlike children in many other oppressed groups fat children get little support from parents, teachers, or peers; instead of receiving support from her parents or teachers when other children make sizist remarks, a fat child will often be told, "If only you lost weight, you wouldn't have this problem."
Research has documented that women are most often the victims of size discrimination. Perhaps this is because men have traditionally garnered credibility through the power and wealth they accumulate, and women have garnered credibility through how closely they conform to society's ideals of beauty. Size discrimination is therefore linked to sexism. Because women of certain ethnic groups tend to be fatter than white women, size discrimination is linked to racism. Because women get fatter as they get older (a physiological phenomena), size discrimination is linked to ageism. Because lower income women tend to be fatter than higher income women, size discrimination is linked to classism. There should be no doubt that size discrimination is a feminist issue.
In most places, discrimination against fat people is perfectly legal. Currently, there is only one state, Michigan, which has a statute prohibiting size discrimination. And there are only a few cities which have ordinances prohibiting discrimination based on personal appearance. When a fat person decides to fight size discrimination, she most often has to litigate using disability rights laws. But the truth is, while some fat people are disabled, most fat people aren't disabled, leading some courts to create a Catch-22 for fat people. There was a case in Pennsylvania, for example, where the court said that even though the employer didn't want to hire the person because of their physical problems, those problems were not a handicap, and therefore the fat person was not protected by the handicap law. Can you have it both ways? "We're not hiring you because you're physically inadequate, but you're not protected because you are physically adequate."
Fat people desperately need statutory protection, both to raise their quality of life, and to ensure an avenue of redress should they be discriminated against. The words "height and weight" should be added as a protected category, so that an employer cannot arbitrarily dismiss a candidate or an employee because of her size. Schools and universities should not receive state or federal funding if they discriminate against fat people. High school curriculum dealing with civil rights movements should include the size acceptance movement. Training for teachers should include material to raise sensitivity about size issues, and school health care professionals should have accurate information about fat and health, and the self-esteem issues of fat children. There should be a mandate that every public building, from jury boxes in courtrooms to desks in schools, be accessible to fat people.
Neither the California Legislature nor Congress have taken an interest in size discrimination issues. A Congressional subcommittee is holding a series of informational hearings on regulating the diet industry. Legislation coming out of these hearings may give fat people some consumer protection, but will do nothing for problems of size discrimination.
Because this is a feminist issue, NOW should take a public stance against size discrimination. An anti-size discrimination resolution, first passed by California NOW at our 1988 Conference, will be considered at the 1990 National NOW Conference in San Francisco.
Stereotypes, and the resulting prejudice, develop from a belief that a group of people share common characteristics. This belief is almost always grounded in myth. The central myth surrounding the prejudice against fat people is that, if fat people really wanted to, they could lose weight. It doesn't seem to matter that research indicates that fat people are fat because of heredity and metabolic factors; that 95-98% of all diets fail within three to five years; that much of the $33 billion that the diet industry earns annually comes at the expense of the health and well being of fat people; that more people will die from weight loss surgery than died in the Vietnam War; that yo-yo dieting makes a person fatter; that most fat people have no more choice in their size than a person does in the color of their skin. Our society, which accepts that in the bell curve of the human species, some people will be shorter or taller than average, and some people will be thinner than average, cannot accept that some people will be fatter than average.
This climate of non-acceptance creates a "blame the victim" mentality, wherein myths and stereotypes are used to justify treating fat people as second-class citizens. This has a devastating effect on the quality of life for fat people. Fat people are discriminated against in employment, in that they are denied employment, denied promotions and raises, denied benefits, and sometimes fired, all because of their weight. Fat people are discriminated against in education, in that they are not accepted into graduate programs, and are harassed and expelled because of their weight. Fat people cannot adopt children, solely because of their weight. Fat people are denied access to adequate medical care, in that they are denied treatment, misdiagnosed, harassed, and treated as though every medical condition, from a sore throat to a broken bone, is a weight-related condition. Fat people are denied access to public accommodations, such as public transportation, airline travel, theatres, and restaurants because seating is not available for them.
Because fat people are fair game for ridicule and public humiliation, they face substantial social discrimination. Epithets are screamed at fat people; ice cream cones are snatched out of the hands of fat people "for their own good"; fat people are run off of public beaches and out of health spas, because they do not look "acceptable".
This discrimination takes an enormous toll on a fat person's self-esteem, particularly when the person is a child. Unlike children in many other oppressed groups fat children get little support from parents, teachers, or peers; instead of receiving support from her parents or teachers when other children make sizist remarks, a fat child will often be told, "If only you lost weight, you wouldn't have this problem."
Research has documented that women are most often the victims of size discrimination. Perhaps this is because men have traditionally garnered credibility through the power and wealth they accumulate, and women have garnered credibility through how closely they conform to society's ideals of beauty. Size discrimination is therefore linked to sexism. Because women of certain ethnic groups tend to be fatter than white women, size discrimination is linked to racism. Because women get fatter as they get older (a physiological phenomena), size discrimination is linked to ageism. Because lower income women tend to be fatter than higher income women, size discrimination is linked to classism. There should be no doubt that size discrimination is a feminist issue.
In most places, discrimination against fat people is perfectly legal. Currently, there is only one state, Michigan, which has a statute prohibiting size discrimination. And there are only a few cities which have ordinances prohibiting discrimination based on personal appearance. When a fat person decides to fight size discrimination, she most often has to litigate using disability rights laws. But the truth is, while some fat people are disabled, most fat people aren't disabled, leading some courts to create a Catch-22 for fat people. There was a case in Pennsylvania, for example, where the court said that even though the employer didn't want to hire the person because of their physical problems, those problems were not a handicap, and therefore the fat person was not protected by the handicap law. Can you have it both ways? "We're not hiring you because you're physically inadequate, but you're not protected because you are physically adequate."
Fat people desperately need statutory protection, both to raise their quality of life, and to ensure an avenue of redress should they be discriminated against. The words "height and weight" should be added as a protected category, so that an employer cannot arbitrarily dismiss a candidate or an employee because of her size. Schools and universities should not receive state or federal funding if they discriminate against fat people. High school curriculum dealing with civil rights movements should include the size acceptance movement. Training for teachers should include material to raise sensitivity about size issues, and school health care professionals should have accurate information about fat and health, and the self-esteem issues of fat children. There should be a mandate that every public building, from jury boxes in courtrooms to desks in schools, be accessible to fat people.
Neither the California Legislature nor Congress have taken an interest in size discrimination issues. A Congressional subcommittee is holding a series of informational hearings on regulating the diet industry. Legislation coming out of these hearings may give fat people some consumer protection, but will do nothing for problems of size discrimination.
Because this is a feminist issue, NOW should take a public stance against size discrimination. An anti-size discrimination resolution, first passed by California NOW at our 1988 Conference, will be considered at the 1990 National NOW Conference in San Francisco.
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 9:50 AMOops, forgot the link www.naafa.org/press_room/sizism.html
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 9:56 AMI think size discrimination and body image issues are important, but please give me a break and don't compare Black race issues to fat discrimination issues.
They may have some overlap but are not the same. Not the same history.
Plenty of fat guys have hung black men from trees. Plenty of black people and other races are fat. Not many people have been dragged from the back of a pick up truck because they were fat.
I'm sure you could show me tons of evidence of fat discrimination and I KNOW it exists, but don't insult the memory of my Grandmother and Great Grandparents and black and white civil rights activist, abolitionist and many other people by comparing the two issues. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 10:11 AMMany radical feminists and sociologists who deconstruct and look at our patriarchal society DO compare the two. There are many studies to show the links. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 10:41 AMi do think this is a serious issue.. and i do think some comparisons with racism are valid. there is a lot of fat-phobia in our culture and it is pretty nasty.
still, i think yuni's point about the legacy of slavery and lynching is a valid one. fat people catch plenty of shit, and its far more serious than anything that could be called 'teasing'. nika, i would love to see some of the writers you refer to so we can discuss what they have to say.
creating a heirarchy of suffering is a pointless task - did my armenian ancestors suffer more or less in their genocide at the hands of the turks than european jews did under the german holocaust? its a moot point to compare atrocities.
still, ive never heard of anyone being lynched for being fat. if im wrong, let me know.
anybody seen these photos?
www.withoutsanctuary.org/main.html
take a look. therye pretty terrifiying, and while i do take fat activism very seriously, i think it would be a mistake to make unqualified comparisons to the history or racial oppression in our country.
that said, i do think it is a pretty serious issue, and would love to see NOW come out with a stance on it. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 10:50 AMIt all stems from the same place was my point.
Sorry don't have the time to dig up case studies right now. I may spend lots of time here but I do have a job. ;)
And yes I am aware that fat people deal with far more issues rather than just teasing. I don't think I said that. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 10:53 AMTry Bell Hooks. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:06 AM<Try Bell Hooks.>
ive read a lot of bell hooks, but dont recall reading anything that makes unqualified comparisions between racial oppression of black folks in white culture and sizeist oppression of fat folks.
i agree that the two have a similar root, sure.. all discrimination does. but i think its important to also note the (serious) differences between the two. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:33 AM>>i agree that the two have a similar root, sure.. all
>> discrimination does. but i think its important to
>>also note the (serious) differences between the two.
So, what exactly are those differences? Slavery has been around longer. Well, all slavery has, but American slavery, which was a different critter than much of earlier slavery, was during a certain several hundred years. The humiliation of the fat is recorded through out classical literature. Maybe it hurts less? I'm sure my daughter, when hit and called fatty, only to be told by the principal that if she would just lose weight she wouldn't have to put up with being made fun of, was MUCH less hurt than some black child who gets called nigger. Nevermind that she gained the weight after losing an ovary at age 12. (I gained mine after having ovarian surgery at age 13) -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 12:19 PM<So, what exactly are those differences?>
lynching. murder. slavery.
those are the differences. the stuff youre talking about, im not arguing about.
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:04 AM<And yes I am aware that fat people deal with far more issues rather than just teasing. I don't think I said that.>
no, you didnt.. i didnt intend to imply that.
i think some people have a reaction 'so what if someone gets teased for being fat - big deal'. i was simply saying that dismissive reaction is an ignorant one, not suggesting that it was your reaction. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:06 AM:)
ummmmm..... edward siad discusses "othering" - could possibly fit when conceptualizing the comparisons. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:13 AMya - i can't site exact writings now - but it doesn't have to be so cut and dry as how can you insult my family ta ta ta - the body as a canvas pops to mind. like i said i'm at work.
i'll quit now. this tribe has become an anti racist , me, me, me, me, tribe. since i'm not one, a racist that is, i'll exit. so tiring hearing the same banter over and over again. no offence to those who are new to this subject here in this tribe but its seems to be one persons facination.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 12:21 PM<i'll quit now.>
im not arguing with you, just curious about some of the writers you are talking about. i like to read about this sort of thing.
<its seems to be one persons facination.>
really? whose?
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 1:00 PM"creating a heirarchy of suffering is a pointless task"
it helps with righteous indignation
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 8:36 PMPowerful post and photos, Andy, thank you. l believe we all need a reminder sometimes.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 2:00 PMFirst: I am not guided very much to radical feminist or radical anyone else. They are called radical for a reason.
Second: I have read a lot of bell hooks and while I have seen her write on black woman and negative body image due to our society's idolization of the petite frame and paler skin, I have not once seen her make a side by side comparison of black racism history and the struggle for civil rights to the current situation of fat discrimination.
The two don't compare. They are both situations that face discrimination and like I said yes, there is overlap but a comparison is just not valid. Figure Skating and Curling both take place in an Ice Skating rink but I don't go comparing them either.
I agree that there should be no heirachy of discrimination and that is why I for instance belong to the Homostory tribe because I think Homosexual history and their struggles are just as important as as any other group's. I hate it when I see Latins or Jews or Blacks or any other group competing on the biggest victim scale. But this isn't about that.
I just don't think you can compare racism and sexism to issues of fat discrimination. There are just too many factors that don't line up equally. The facts are that obesity is a big problem in this country. It is a health issue that can be addressed on physical and mental levels...my race is not.
Should we now start to compare anorexics to Blacks as well?
Gwenny started this conversation using Blacks as her example so I felt compelled to address that.
Giving me back a history of your family struggles doesn't have anything to do with obesity and discrimination. I don't bring up my Grandmother to play some sort of struggle competition. I brought her up to illustrate black history. Do those struggles you included of your family have anything to do with size? Because if they don't then what is your point?
Obesity does not discriminate against age, height, sex, race or even class. It is sometimes hereditary or glandular but often (most of the time) it is self inflicted. It does have to do with inner feelings and perceptions and social norms but ultimately it is about the individual. Fat people have fat kids not strictly because of genetics but also because of diet and activity level. Black people are black just because that is what they are.
Don't think I don't get body image issues because I do. I live in LA and I work in TV. I am a moose compared to all these skinny chicks surrounding me. Also I am black and all you gotta do is look at the medical charts and you will see that many blacks have higher rates of obesity than average. Genetically those of us who are of African American decent tend to have more of a predisposition to obesity and to add to that many of us have really shitty eating habits.
Also I have been at least 40 pounds overweight. Then I worked at it and lost it. I have yet to find a sit up for blackness.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 5:02 PM>>Do those struggles you included of your family have anything to do with size? Because if they don't then what is your point?
Thank you, I was afraid I would have to start another thread. Let me use an incident that happened this morning to illustrate:
I was going to Walnut Creek to be checked up for a medical study of which I am a part (the fibromyalgia). I was about a third of the way there when Babe's gas light came on. Babe does NOT have a large reserve tank, so I immediately got off the highway to look for a gas station and, on fumes, rolled into a little beat up station. I had to go in to pay the $3 I had scrounged out of the toll fare horde. The bell rang and a small bearded red head came out of the garage. He eyes settled on me and he got that look that people get when they are shocked by seeing a fat person. Disgust, rejection, a bit of hostility. Not the first time I've seen it. I made eye contact, smiled and said I was running out of gas, could I please get $3. Even in the quick moment his attitude had changed. He took my money and said thanks.
I then went out to pump my gas and for some reason I could not get it to pump. I went back in, apologized and explained the problem. He came around the counter and went out to explain that they had installed pump you have to hold a certain way to keep people from forgetting about them. I say, "OMG I feel stupid." He had started back. He turned around and leaned a hand on my car and said, "No, I have to tell most people how to work them." We chatted a bit more and then he made eye contact and said, "Good bye, thanks have a good day."
Another story. When I went into to interview for the job I have now, I found out that 4 20-somethings were also interviewing for the job. I was up front with my boss, because I could see him wondering if he wanted a fat woman at the front desk, and I told him I knew that they might think they wanted a younger, slimmer woman for the job, but I hoped he would let me show him why I was the one he should hire. I think preceded to not only to use every piece of software he asked me to use, I but I gave him tips about WORD while I typed a letter, addressed an evelope, talked to him, and answered the phone. I remember he said, "You're finished already?" when I handed him the letter for his signature. He told me he had to finish the interviews, but he would call me as soon as he made a decision. I knew I had the job. Fat or not, I can type anyone under the table. LOL
My point? You see what you want to see, and your attitude affects how people treat you.
By the way, sort of on the other side of the story, this was a response from a guy in Heated Debate to a post I made about polyamory:
OMG!
GWENNY!
how many babies did you have to eat to get that large?
you need to start on a baby free diet if you want to even start to lose some of that..er....baby fat?
I'm not sure if he's white or black, it never even occured to me to look. As far as I"m concerned, he's an asshole and that's the label he needs. :) -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 5:07 PMGwenny those tales have nothing to do with what I was asking. I asked what the stories about your grandmother and mother had to do with fat discrimination.
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:10 AM>>but please give me a break and don't compare Black race issues to fat discrimination issues.
So, the suffering on one black person today is of greater importance because there is a history of slavery, even though that person may not even be descended from slaves, than the suffering of a fat person? Nevermind that fat phobias are a part of literary history going all the way back as far as there's fiction. . which is before there was slavery in America. One on One, the black's suffering is more important? Just trying to clarify what you said. How about the Native Americans. Is their suffering less because they were herded into reservations after their land was taken while blacks were sold into slavery by their relatives and mistreated by whites? The suffering of the Irish, the other blacks, was less because they were factories workers, obstentibly free, paid practically nothing and not forced to labor for free--even though, as a possession, a black got some medical care and was feed to get more work out of him/her, while the factory owner knew that there would be boat loads of new work force on the even tide and paid no benefits so many of the Europeans who came to America for a new life died in the first year?
You know, one of my maternal great grandmothers had her first child when she was 14. She went back to work the next day, working 12 hour days. She walked home for lunch to nurse the baby, only a mile, but the takes at least fifteen minutes if you walked quickly. . .don't even want to know what it's like to walk four miles a day one day post-partum. She worked in a match factory, where she was exposed to toxic chemicals her entire working life. My paternal great-great grandmother, the story goes, was found barely breathing under the raped body of her mother after the US soldiers had razed her village and rounded up her people to take them on the Trail of Tears. But hey, they were free, so it's not so bad. : / -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 12:23 PMas i said, trying to create a heirarchy of atrocities is fairly pointless.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 1:22 PM>> as i said, trying to create a heirarchy of atrocities is fairly pointless.
I understand. But Yuni considers the trials of the blacks to be worse than any other people has suffered. Isn't that part of the problem? The idea that anyone's suffering is worse than anothers? What if we could just admit that people have suffered and worked, instead, to end suffering.
And I'm thinking how unfair it is to correct me for lumping all the blacks together, as Yuni did when I said "them" and "they", when I'm talking, but the people arguing that blacks have it worse to lump them all together, none of whom have EVER been slaves and most of whom have never faced lynching or murder, to prove they had it worse. How about we take it one person at a time.
The whole "whites" owe "blacks" something because of slavery is just silly in my mind. The majority of my ancestors were immigrants at the beginning of the 20th century. They were all poor and mostly factory workers. The balance were either Native American or Northerners who never owned slaves. My ancestors never enslaved anyone, never lynched anyone, never belong to the KKK or anything. Why then, does almost every time this subject come up, blacks in these groups feel the need to make me feel guilty for the suffering of people a long time ago? And even worse, why is it that blacks who are NOT descended from slaves, feel entitled to take a share of that guilt? Do the rich mulattoes in Lousiana, whose families owned black slaves, deserve the same pity as the people legitimately descended from slaves? -
-
Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 2:14 PM<<The whole "whites" owe "blacks" something because of slavery is just silly in my mind. >>
What the heck does that have to do with anything? And a lot of people don't feel that way at all. I certainly don't so what are you getting at?
YOU made a comparisons between blacks and obesity. I just told you what I think of that comparison. Who has said that whites owe blacks anything? Where? Where does it say that?
If you want to talk about obesity then why don't you start a conversation about obesity and not start out by trying to make comparisons to being black? Do you not feel it stands well enough on it's own? -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 2:34 PMI am not thin by the way. In Hastings Ranch Pasadena where I lived and went to High School you don't see a lot of fat (or black) people at the country club or on the golf course. The girls there often learn to diet before they learn to read. I have a curvey body. Never have been thin except for once when I worked out for 3 hours every day and ate nothing but broccoli....and even then I was not a skinny girl. I was not petite. When I returned to eating normally and average activity I gained weight again; almost 60 pounds. Now I have lost about 40 of those but I gained more with age. I'm a chunky girl and I don't care much about fitting into social norms because I think I'm fine the way I am, but I'm healthy not obese. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 4:07 PM<<<"creating a heirarchy of suffering is a pointless task"
it helps with righteous indignation >>>
please stuart, please explain what you mean by this.
in no way was i being indignant nor righteous. i was simply pointing out that the human body as a canvas has been oppressed and exploited in many ways that all tie into our present ideologies.
happy happy joy joy -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:43 PMif we have a heirarchy to refer to then those at the top of the pile can point to it and say, without challenge 'respect my authority!' They can be righteous with impunity.
what do you mean by
"the human body as a canvas has been oppressed and exploited in many ways that all tie into our present ideologies."
?
-
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 4:21 PM<Who has said that whites owe blacks anything? Where? Where does it say that?>
well, it hasnt been said yet, but i will.
lets give 40 acres and a mule to the descendents of folks the government promised it too.
lets pay reparations to descendents of slaves.
and lets reinstate all broken treaties, and negate all underhanded land 'deals' with first nations folks.
while were at it, lets stop dismantling affirmative action.
ok? -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 4:34 PMI am loving where you are coming from Andy but realistically I don't actually feel like I am owed anything. I do want to see some land returned to the original inhabitants of this land, but I also realize that there are some locations that couldn't ever really be returned without causing even more problems. Still they do deserve a lot and I think the government should be doing a lot to address some of the issues and conditions on the reservations...or rather the government should be giving the Native population the tools they need to address the issues themselves and more Land would be a good start.
40 acres and a mule? Nah I don't want it. I do agree that our government should try to honor the promise though but I'd rather see that kind of money go to nationalized health care and universal college education. So many of my European friends went to college for free - we should have that here. I also want to see more inner city education and enrichment programs. I want universal Pre-School education and after School programs with more money to help teachers and give them the tools they need. That is where that 40 acres and a mule money should go IMO. I don't care what races benefit from it just as long as something is done to help kids end up in college instead of jail. Maybe if we did more social education and racism awareness and just overall education then we wouldn't someday need affirmative action. Right now I don't think we are ready to dismantle it so we shouldn't. But someday I would love it if we could. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:46 PM"giving the Native population the tools they need to address the issues themselves"
casinos seem to be doing rather well for them -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:50 PMOnly some native populations have casinos and many of them have benifited from that, but many have also paid a huge social price by having casinos on their land. Others aren't in places where casinos are viable anyway so they continue to like in below standard living conditions. Casinos should not be the only option for change. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:51 PMUm...typo that was Live not Like.
-
-
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 5:21 PM>>lets give 40 acres and a mule to the descendents of folks the government promised it too.
Out of my people's land? Sure, why not, we aren't using it anymore. LOL As long as they spend their hard earned money at our casinos.
>>lets pay reparations to descendents of slaves.
How do you decide who is descendents of slaves. How much parentage do they have to have to qualify for it. And you can only charge the children of the slave owners. The US govt fought a war to free the slaves <snort>. Maybe we should pay every black a check for the 40 acres and a mule--in the currency of the time--and then a bill for the Civil War.
>>and lets reinstate all broken treaties, and negate all
>>underhanded land 'deals' with first nations folks.
The first inhabitants of the western hemisphere were mostly gone long before the Europeans got here. There MIGHT have been a few living in what is now California, but most of them had been pushed to extinction by the Asians who came over that land bridge and helped drive the megafauna into extinction, too. :) Since those first people were related to the Australian Aborigines, maybe we can pay them reparations.
But, if you reinstate all the broken treaties, there isn't going to BE 40 acres and a mule for anyone.
>>while were at it, lets stop dismantling affirmative action.
I've been against dismantling that, but some of the blacks I know have made a good case for it. Did you know that blacks owned more businesses and had a higher per capita before the govt started trying to "help" them? Believe it or not, there are blacks out there who prefer to make it on their own rather than be a token. The nerve. We have this perfectly good nanny state to lull them back into slavery via entitlements and welfare. How dare they stand up for themselves?
Okay, we done with the blacks and the American Indians? Let's talk about women. . . .
Would you be surprised to know I got thrown out of a white supremist group and a liberal democrat group on the same day later year. <chuckle> It's a little harder to argue an issue when you are arguing both sides in different places.
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 5:58 PMyah, its pretty difficult to make a argument for the validity of reparations without getting bogged down in logistics. that said, there is precedent for it, the govt payed reparations to japanese who were in 'interment camps' in WW2. and there are good reasons why it should be done.
gwenny, my ancestors didnt own slaves either, and im not suggesting that you personally 'owe' anyone anything. im talking about reparations paid by the govt., not by you personally. sure, were probably talking tax dollars, but the govt does a lot of stuff with my tax dollar that, well..
yuni, if you dont want reparations (assuming you are descended from slaves, since you chimed in about whether you wanted em or not) thats up to you. if we can imagine for a minute a creative and just government (its a stretch) lets imagine some sort of useful fund being created with reparations $. if you dont want it, you can dispose of it as you see fit or the govt. could put it in this imaginary fund.
really, im arguing more of an idealogical point than a logistical one. while i dont necessarily expect reparations to be paid, and certainly dont expect making life 'fair' to be an attainable goal, i think it is worth talking about if only to keep the awareness of the legacy of racism and exploitation alive.
anyone follow damail ayo's work, particularly her 'living flag' project? shes a performance artist doing a 'diy reparations project' - basically panhandling for reparations on the street, which she later re-distributes to descendents of slavery.
damaliayo.com/pages/livingflag.htm
and also responsible for the (now defunct) rentanegro.com website. shes pretty fascinating.
a page from of the journal of her reparations project here:
"living flag journal" (portland 2003)
…a woman came up and began to yell at me. she said i was uneducated and stupid. that i should just get over it. she was viciously angry. she yelled over and over that i was uneducated. my ivy-league diploma peeked over my shoulder, looking back at her with amazement.
a group of white kids and one black kid, about 11 years old, maybe 13, came by i told the black young man that he didn't have to pay and he raised his fist and said "black power." and "yeah, they should pay us."
a young woman put money in my can and said "i'm sorry." it was powerful as all honest apologies are. something about a real apology opens the heart and makes room for connection and communication. living in a society whose main core value is "everyone for themselves" is a damaging way of life. it strips us of humanity. it is cruel and cold.
my take at the end of a couple of hours: $16.32.
no one accepted a receipt. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 9:24 PMre: damali ayo.. the best look at what she is doing in this project is a short flash piece found here:
www.stories1st.org/flashstories/
you will then have to click on her photo, the one at the top of a black woman with dreads.
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 8:21 AM>>the govt payed reparations to japanese who were in
>>'interment camps' in WW2. and there are good
>>reasons why it should be done.
Yes, because the US did that.
>>im talking about reparations paid by the govt.,
>>not by you personally. sure, were probably talking tax
>>dollars, but the govt does a lot of stuff with my tax dollar that, well..
But the govt did not own slaves. In fact, congress critters from Jefferson on tried to end it. It was a war declared by the US govt that ended slavery in the US. Slavery, American style was started by the English, French and Spaniards. IF reparations were to be paid, should the UK, France and Spain not have a part in paying them? While we are at it, let's demand the money we paid the black royals of N Africa for their people that they sold. I appreciate that you are willing to pay your tax dollars to do it, are blacks willing to pay their tax dollars to do it? How about all the immigrants who are weren't even here?
And while we are paying reparations, I demand reparations. Women have suffered institutionalized abuse for millennia. It was legal well into the 20th century to physically discipline your wife. Women could not own land, but belonged to whatever man was in charge of her, with a mother depending on the charity of her sons when her husband died. Even black men abandoned women when it came time to get the vote. The leaders of the black movement felt they had a better chance of getting the vote themselves if they dumped pushing for women to have the franchise. While part of me can see that, don't you think that once they had it, they might have helped agitate for women's rights? Women would not get the vote for 60 more years. Thanks Frederick.
At what point, dear, do we each stand up as individuals and say "I am responsible for how I choose to view the world and how I choose to interact with the world. I am more than my ancestors and what happened to them. I am more than what has happened to me, even. I choose to be my own Master, my own Captain."
When I was young, I had to obey my parents. The alternative was severe beatings, beatings so bad that even in the early 60s when corporal punishment was accepted by schools, they could not send me to school some days. Some of the obedience involved submitting to sexual violation for face rape. Do you know how I maintained my sanity? I decided that if I made the conscious decision to obey, after weighing all the options and deciding defiance was counterproductive, that I was in control of my own life. My belief was solidified by this quote from Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet': Free is he who carries the slave's burden with patience".
>>shes a performance artist doing a 'diy reparations project' -
>>basically panhandling for reparations on the street,
>>which she later re-distributes to descendents of slavery.
Nice consciousness raising tool.
>>a group of white kids and one black kid, about 11 years old,
>>maybe 13, came by i told the black young man that he didn't
>>have to pay and he raised his fist and said "black power."
>>and "yeah, they should pay us."
I think I feel sick. A group of children, most likely friends, who have never even considered that one of them is different, in all likelihood, see her. She induces guilt in the white ones, who probably have public school education and, therefore, no real knownledge of what she is doing. And she grants a sense of entitlement and superiority to the black one. One can only hope that their friendship is strong enough to weather to possible repercussions.
You need to check out bureaucrash.org/ . They are mostly 20 something assholes, lol, but some of their posters and information will cause an open minded liberal person to re-think some of the policies that have been introduced to "help" people. I strongly support everyone questioning at least one of their beliefs a week. :) -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 9:06 AM<A group of children, most likely friends, who have never even considered that one of them is different, in all likelihood, see her. She induces guilt in the white ones, who probably have public school education and, therefore, no real knownledge of what she is doing. And she grants a sense of entitlement and superiority to the black one. One can only hope that their friendship is strong enough to weather to possible repercussions.>
you think that by that age the black kid still doesnt know what racism is?
you think the white kids, if they dont know already, dont need to know?
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 9:08 AM>>you think that by that age the black kid still doesnt know what racism is?
>>you think the white kids, if they dont know already, dont need to know?
I think it is doubtful, given the tv watching proclivities of modern Amercan youth, that they do not already know. However, in SF I think there is a good possibility that none of them has experienced it. In SF the Hispanic is the odd man out. :)
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 10:34 AMIf anyone thinks by 13 a black kid isn't aware of what racism is and doesn't already have some pretty well established thoughts on it then they need to wake up!!
I knew what racism felt like when I was 6 and not because any adult fed it to me. I had already lived it by then.....sometimes in direct ways like a little girl who's parents wouldn't let her play with me or in indirect ways like being frustrated that not many Barbies had a Black equivalent or not wanting to use coloring books with people because though I could use any crayon to make any color it bothered me that the people were all obviously caucasian. I didn't want to have to choose what race to make people and pretend the hair and face weren't different. I wanted dolls that looked like me (at least some of the time) and coloring books that had me and my family represented but there just weren't many in the 70s. I wanted a crayon that didn't say "flesh" and have a color that looked nothing like my flesh. I didn't even know how to voice that at that age so I just always made my mother buy coloring books with animals and objects instead of people. Even she didn't know I felt that way. It wasn't taught to me. It didn't make me hate or resent my friends or even separate me from them, but I still was aware of race. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 11:57 AM>>I knew what racism felt like when I was 6 and
>>not because any adult fed it to me. I had already
>>lived it by then.....sometimes in direct ways like a
>>little girl who's parents wouldn't let her play with
>>me or in indirect ways like being frustrated
Sucks, doesn't it. When I was a bit over two my beautiful porcelin skinned blonde half sister was born. Hers was a beauty I aspired to for years, ashamed of my darker skin and hair. And do you know I didn't even consider dating until I was a senior because my family assured me that no family in our parish would want their son dating a half-breed bastard?
>>that not many Barbies had a Black equivalent
You say you spent your childhood in Puerta Vallarta. Is that in Mexico? There were a lot of Barbies for sale there? I only ask because in predominantly Easter European northern Ohio we had (search.ebay.com/julia-nurs...krZ1QQfnuZ1 ) (It was more acceptable to be black than be a half-breed in my family) in the late sixties. Do you feel that Mexico not having black dolls is somehow the fault of the US and slavery? Do you think that, since you have indicated that you were the only black family in Puerto Vallarta, it was reasonable to expect local stores to carry toys for you? Did your parents consider getting the Sears catalog? That is where my mother bought ours? Does it occur to you that your inability to trust your mother enough to communicate your fears and longing to her was a bigger problem than being black? Doesn't Barbie fucking piss you off with her stylized unnatural body and rich, elitist lifestyle?
In the year 2000 the percentage of blacks in the US was just under 13% according to the US Census Bureau. My research just now has shown me what my memory told me, Matel, a white company, made an entire series of black dolls. (They even did a Gone With the Wind collectors set that include black women--what they haven't made is Hispanic or Asian Barbies, according to what I coudl find.) Now, do you think children should be allowed to play with toys that reflect their environment, which in much of the Mid-West includes only whites because it's too freaking cold for blacks--or most sane humans--to move there? Or do you think that children should be forced to play with black dolls? In what percentage? Could a child with five dolls be allowed to have only one because that almost reflects the AVERAGE racial makeup of US? Or should she be compelled to have toys that represent the racial makeup of the coastal cities. Should we force Matel to make Hispanic dolls? And to be fair, should we force black children to play with white dolls? Because it's very easy these days, with black makers of toys becoming successful, to find only black toys for your children. I've noticed you can tell the racial makeup of a city by going to the local Walmart or Target and looking at their dolls.
Btw, there was a black GI Joe. But there wasn't a black in the Johnny West collection and the damned women are all blonde. i16.ebayimg.com/03/i/06/a3/23/5d_1.JPG WTF? LOL
>> I still was aware of race
I understand. It is horrible to feel that you are alone . .that there is NO ONE like you and everyone will hate you because you are inferior and unlikable. (Which is re-inforced by television and movies that portrayed mixed NA/white people as traitors, liars and sluts.) Add the nuns telling you you have no soul because illegitimate children are hated by God, and you have a pretty good recipe for a lifetime of self-loathing and self-abuse. :) Damn, I want reparations you filthy elitist whites!! ROFL The Man is keeping me down. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 12:22 PMGwenny why would you ask if there were Barbies for Sale in Mexico? It wasn't outter space. And don't even get me started on why all the Barbies for sale in Mexico were blonde when 90% of the girls were not. I would have probably been somewhat interested in a brown Barbie. Also my Mom is American - From South Central LA..... I spent lots of time in the US and although there were darker Barbies here and there (that you can pull up on ebay as if that means a god damn thing!) they were not that common on store shelves. They were not in every store in the 70s - not even close. And if the new Cowboy Barbie or Beach Fun Barbie came out usually it did not have a Black equivelent or if it did it would come out months or even years later.
<<Do you feel that Mexico not having black dolls is somehow the fault of the US and slavery?>>
That question is so ridiculous it doesn't even deserve an answer.
<<Do you think that, since you have indicated that you were the only black family in Puerto Vallarta, it was reasonable to expect local stores to carry toys for you? Did your parents consider getting the Sears catalog? That is where my mother bought ours?
Who said I was talking about Mexican stores? My family traveled to the US quit a bit.
<<Does it occur to you that your inability to trust your mother enough to communicate your fears and longing to her was a bigger problem than being black?>>
Um....who said anything about not trusting my Mother? Don't fucking play games and even try to analyze my family because so far from what you have written the only family relationships you should be thinking about are yours. I wasn't old enough to understand it all so I didn't know how to communicate my thoughts on it. My Mother is awesome and You are so over the top!
<<<Doesn't Barbie fucking piss you off with her stylized unnatural body and rich, elitist lifestyle? >>
Um.....I was 6. I learned to be pissed at Barbie a bit later.
OK Gwenny.....seriously I don't want to insult you but talking to you is pointless it seems because you seem to have all the answers.
I'll remember in the future if I have any more questions about myself and my relationship with my mother and my feelings on race that you are indeed the expert and I shouldn't waste my time thinking when you have already figured it out for all of us. Thank goodness for you otherwise we'd all be lost. Good luck with your life journey. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 12:38 PM>>>>OK Gwenny.....seriously I don't want to insult you but talking to you is pointless it seems because you seem to have all the answers.
I'll remember in the future if I have any more questions about myself and my relationship with my mother and my feelings on race that you are indeed the expert and I shouldn't waste my time thinking when you have already figured it out for all of us. Thank goodness for you otherwise we'd all be lost. Good luck with your life journey. >>>
is this not the extreme honesty tribe the one where people can speak from their honest perspective without judgement or insult. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh ahahahahaha. another tribe. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 12:50 PMProjecting feelings and situations onto someone else isn't honesty. And Heckling doesn't honestly add anything to a conversation.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 12:52 PMPolitical Solidarity Between Women ~ Bell Hooks
If you HAVE read Bell Hooks you would know that she stresses the need to caste away white/black disscussions and to join together politically in order to create positive change.
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:02 PMI have read plenty of bell hooks and half of her books are about being black. Talk about taking words out of context. She stresses the need for feminist to join together whether they are black or white or any other race and that sexism is a great enemy for us all to strive against. She does not dismiss the need for black/white discussions.
Do the below book titles look like those of someone who thinks we should end black/white discussions?
Pfffft!!
Ain't I A Woman: Black Women and Feminism
We Real Cool: Black Men and Masculinity
Bone Black: Memories of Childhood
Wounds of Passion: A Writing Life
Happy to Be Nappy - a children's book
Feminism Is for Everybody: Passionate Politics
Salvation: Black People and Love -
-
Unsu...
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:06 PMNice googling.
Just because the word black is in the title does not mean that she does not stress that we need to end such discussions and move forward, together. If you have read Bell Hooks you would have gotten the political slant to the comparisons in the original post that Gwenny provided.
pfft. right back at ya.
you can be so contradictory.
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:10 PMYeah she includes black in the titles because that is what it is about. I've read many of the books. She often writes about how we need to talk about it.
and no, like I said before: I have read a lot of bell hooks and while I have seen her write on black woman and negative body image due to our society's idolization of the petite frame and paler skin, I have not once seen her make a side by side comparison of black racism history and the struggle for civil rights to the current situation of fat discrimination.
And Monica you don't want to start getting into an insult name calling game with me. We've been doing fine for a while so don't start. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:56 PM>>And Monica you don't want to start getting into
>>an insult name calling game with me.
>>We've been doing fine for a while so don't start.
OMG, she did NOT call you a name. She said you are contradictory.
According to www.m-w.com contradictory relates to
Main Entry: con·tra·dic·tion
Pronunciation: "kän-tr&-'dik-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : act or an instance of contradicting
2 a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other <a round square is a contradiction in terms>
3 a : logical incongruity b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another
Crazy bitch is calling names. Saying you are contradictory is merely a sign you confuse her.
I've had a lot of respect for you so far, please don't pull this kind of misdirection and make me re-think my opinion of you. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:00 PMGwenny I could give a crap if you respect me.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 11:40 PM<Political Solidarity Between Women ~ Bell Hooks>
ive read a good bit of her work but never heard of this one.. ah.. (you can compliment my google skills too if you like) its an essay in a compliation of essays on feminism.
www.temple.edu/tempress/t...56_reg.html
if anyone can find a link to the text of the article id love to read it and discuss it in more depth.
<If you HAVE read Bell Hooks you would know that she stresses the need to caste away white/black disscussions and to join together politically in order to create positive change.>
hmm.. not the bell hooks ive read. not that she is a separatist, but she writes a lot about the uniqueness of black experience. i dont read her as suggesting that black experience is the only cultural experience worth understanding, but as suggesting that the cultural forces that make us unique (as black, white, male, female, straight, gay...) are all worth examining so we can understand who we are and how we can "join together politically in order to create positive change".
-
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 11:08 PM<There were a lot of Barbies for sale there? I only ask because in predominantly Easter European northern Ohio we had (search.ebay.com/julia-nurs...krZ1QQfnuZ1 ) (It was more acceptable to be black than be a half-breed in my family) in the late sixties. Do you feel that Mexico not having black dolls is somehow the fault of the US and slavery? Do you think that, since you have indicated that you were the only black family in Puerto Vallarta, it was reasonable to expect local stores to carry toys for you? Did your parents consider getting the Sears catalog? That is where my mother bought ours? Does it occur to you that your inability to trust your mother enough to communicate your fears and longing to her was a bigger problem than being black? Doesn't Barbie fucking piss you off with her stylized unnatural body and rich, elitist lifestyle?>
did you learn this 'lunatic ranting' tactic in debate club or what?
seriously, gwenny, ive read enough posts from you to know that if you have a point to make you can make it clearly and directly. whats up here? -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 12:39 AM>>seriously, gwenny, ive read enough posts from you to
>>know that if you have a point to make you can make
>>it clearly and directly. whats up here?
I want her to think about what she said. She said she felt like an outsider because there weren't black Barbie dolls. But there were. There were plenty of them. They were easily available.
I'm driving home my point that the real problem that she is communicating is that her parents did not know she was not socializing well because she did not trust them enough to tell them what was bothering her.
Also, she twists things around to make herself more of a victim. She had already said she lived in Puerta Vallarta. While I can understand that AS A CHILD she might not have understood that it was a different country, she's an adult now and can get a grip on whatever angst she felt then. And I have to question her claims that everything was white. Mexico, unless it has changed, is mostly Mexicans.
And the Barbie comment? I've always disliked Barbie. A lot of women do. Just giving her at least one place to agree with me. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 1:14 AMGwenny you are lost and delusional. I did not once say I felt like an outsider. Where? Where does it say that?
I have and had way more real friends than you will probably ever understand how to make and keep. If anything I learned how to make real friends and keep them very early because of my experiences.
<<Also, she twists things around to make herself more of a victim. She had already said she lived in Puerta Vallarta. While I can understand that AS A CHILD she might not have understood that it was a different country, she's an adult now and can get a grip on whatever angst she felt then. And I have to question her claims that everything was white. Mexico, unless it has changed, is mostly Mexicans. >>
I twisted nothing around. I told you what I felt. Where you there? How can you say what is twisted unless you are now omnipotent??
I didn't have angst so don't project your fucked up chilhood feelings onto me. I had a great family who loved me and I had great friends. I had questions and frustrations about race sometimes...that doesn't mean I was some sort of moping depressed kid. Get real!! Like I said in the other thread I (unlike you) don't spend time regreting my experiences. They are what make me know the things I know and have the friends I have. I was just simply illustrating to you that children do indeed know about race at a young age. You want me to sound like a victim because that is what you relate to, but really the real point is YOU shouldn't have brought race into this conversation at all because if you want to talk about fat discrimination then just fucking talk about fat discrimination and stop trying to play a comparison game.
You do more harm than good to your cause this way.
Um....and in Mexico the Barbies were white as were most of the dolls but as I explained I baught my Barbies in the US and I spent plenty of time in the US. Fact is I just ended up not even playing with barbies most of the time and I went outside and played with rocks and tad poles and climbed trees. Besides.....I wasn't always in Mexico...... my summers were spent at my Grandmother's house in Los Angeles. My mother is American and I am an American citizen by birth as well. You need to stop trying to think you know enough about me to analyze me because you don't.
Gwenny you already said you don't want to talk to me so why don't you stop talking about me?
If you want to talk about fat discrimination and make your point on that then do it. Stop derailing your own topic. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 1:29 AMInstead of wasting this topic trying to pick apart my life and comparing discriminations shouldn't you be directing this thread towards this sort of thing?
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...35.html
www.post-gazette.com/pg/05072/470035.stm
www.diet-blog.com/archives/...nation.php
www.amptoons.com/blog/arch...t-fat-men/
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 11:26 AM<She said she felt like an outsider because there weren't black Barbie dolls. But there were. There were plenty of them. They were easily available.>
are you claiming to know more about the presence or absence of black barbies in yuni's childhood than she does?
-
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 12:30 PM>>are you claiming to know more
>>about the presence or absence
>>of black barbies in yuni's childhood than she does?
No. I'm claiming to know more about pop culture of the 60s and 70s since I was a teenager and adult and IN the US. :) She claimed she felt bad because THERE WERE NONE, I'm just pointing out that that is the choice of her parents, not American whites, that she had none. The dolls existed even in the main stream and there have always been black manufacturers.
I mean, I can't read her parents minds, but multicultural families deal with it in different ways. Perhaps they denied her black toys because they prefered her to identify as . . .what was her father's culture again? Maybe her mother, from LA, felt it would be better for her to not internalize her "blackness" given the state of racist tension in the US at the time. This would explain her inability to address her fears with them, as she knew, at some level, they were trying to control her self-identification.
And I sympathesize. Even though my mixed race was pounded into me, all my dolls where white or black. Not a single NA doll when I was little. They were there, cute little Indian girls in buckskin and beads, but they just didn't buy them for me. -
-
Re: Talk about fat if you want to talk about fat.
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 1:33 PM<<THERE WERE NONE>>
Really?? Where did I write that? Don't make up words I never wrote. And why can't you stop talking about me and trying to make up weird stories about my family? I even gave you links so you can start talking about fat discrimination. Why don't you?
I mean if Fat discrimination is important to you then why am I your main focus of discussion still?
Why don't you talk about what fat discrimination does to young women and it's impact on eating disorders? Or maybe the effects of fat discrimination on young boys and self image. I mean aren't there a variety of topics about fat that you can discuss? Why so focused on me still?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 4:17 PM<But Yuni considers the trials of the blacks to be worse than any other people has suffered. Isn't that part of the problem? The idea that anyone's suffering is worse than anothers?>
i dont think either yuni or i are arguing that at all. read yunis posts. i really dont think that is what she is saying.
what i AM saying, and what i think yuni is saying, is that it is insulting to compare fat-phobia and discrimination against fat people with racism against blacks in our country without acknowledging that while fat folks have been discriminated against in myriad ways for some time now, slavery, lynching, and police brutality are not a part of that legacy.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 4:22 PMdid anyone read the article. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 4:40 PMNika do you mean the first link? Yeah I read it. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 4:46 PMLook the fact of the matter is kids are mean. They tease the fat kid and the kid who has braces with head gear and the one with glasses. In fact they tease anyone who is different. Some are really mean and do hurtful things. I remember one kid being smaller than the rest of the boys and he got tossed around and put in lockers. It sucked, it was awful. Fat kids have it bad, I know.......No doubt about it. But them having suffered meaness does not mean all of a sudden you can start comparing the situation to any other situation where people have been mean. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 1:52 PM"kids are mean. They tease the fat kid and the kid who has braces with head gear and the one with glasses. In fact they tease anyone who is different. Some are really mean and do hurtful things. "
and after they are socialized well enough to be able to effectively ostracize the out group they grow up and continue this behavior with better tools and resources. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:06 PM>>and after they are socialized well enough to be able
>>to effectively ostracize the out group they grow up
>>and continue this behavior with better tools and resources.
Exactly true. Have we agreed before? I can't let that happen too often. :)
I can't tell you how much I object to the current way public schools work. Parents who would call the police if a neighbor treated a child with the disrepect that some children are treated at school tell their kids to "suck it up" or "get used to it". I can't tell you how many parents say things like "it's just the way it is" "it was the same way when I was a kid" and other stupid crap. That's why I homeschooled my kids . . .
" . . .direct observation by trained observers, using a "blind" procedure, found that home-schooled children had significantly fewer problem behaviors, as measured by the Child Observation Checklist's Direct Observation Form, than traditionally schooled children when playing in mixed groups of children from both kinds of schooling backgrounds. This observational study was reported in some detail in the 1992 Associated Press article. Shyers concluded that the hypothesis that contact with adults, rather than contact with other children, is most important in developing social skills in children is supported by these data."
Links to homeschooling and socialization:
learninfreedom.org/socialization.html
www.athomeinamerica.com/Articl...tudy.mv
www.homeschoolingindc.com/getti...n.aspx -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:08 PMThat's why I homeschooled my kids . . .
+++++
good lord -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:32 PM>> >> That's why I homeschooled my kids . . .
>>good lord
You have a problem with that? :)
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:41 PMYou have a problem with that?
+++++
Yes - you being solely responsible for raising another generation of VICTIMS bothers me -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:44 PM>>Yes - you being solely responsible for
>>raising another generation of VICTIMS bothers me
OH, it's YOU . . .see what happens when you DON'T check the profile. I wouldn't have bothered to answer you because I HONESTLY don't care what you think. :) -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 3:46 PMfor someone who doesn't care what people think you sure spend a lot of time and energy trying to argue
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 11:23 PM>>You have a problem with that?<<
i have a problem with that too. I think the homeschoolong movement is about the worst thing to happen to schooling in America. Public schools function as a microcosm of society, with both its problems and plusses. Isolating your kids socially can not be a great help toward their being able to integrate socially down the road. I also worry that, based on almost all your posts in this tribe, you have a lot of anger that you carry. I think your kids, as would most kids, would benefit from a wider range of asult role models. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 11:25 PMthanks for your post rich..
i do know some really inspiring examples of home-schooling, de-schooling, self-education and the like. but i agree that a whole lot of what happens in that world can be pretty problematic.
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 12:21 AM>>I think the homeschoolong movement is
>>about the worst thing to happen to schooling in America.
Why?
>>Public schools function as a microcosm
>>of society, with both its problems and plusses
But they don't? Where in society are people segregated by age? Where in society is bullying and name calling accepted? Where else in society is it a police state where the main things you need to learn are how to stand in line quietly, how to sit quietly and how to follow orders without question?
>> I also worry that, based on almost
>>all your posts in this tribe, you have a lot of anger that you carry.
ALL of my posts? There isn't ONE that indicates to you that I am a happy person? :) What about my posts makes you think I am angry?
>>I think your kids, as would most kids, would benefit
>>from a wider range of asult role models.
They actually had a wider range of adult role models than their peers. Instead of being stuck in a public school all day with teachers, they had the opportunity to interact with all of my friends, a not inconsiderable amount of people even here when I am not one of the darlings of the pagan subculture (aka Lady Raelin Firestorm), and all my husband's friends, an even huger amount than mine as he was actively involved in the Science Fiction scene in Denver for nearly 20 years. They have met writers and politicians and artists, even sang in a talent contest with Isaac Bonewitz. They have participated in protests and demonstrations. My son is a Toastmaster and officer of our club, in addition to being Floor Director for my TV show.
Not only that, but they CAN tell you the five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment, have done an in depth study of the constitution and they know that Lincoln was the first Republican. <laugh>
I gave links in another post to studies that show the homeschooled children are actually better able to interact with other children and adults than public schooled children. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 9:05 AMGwenny, homeschooling pulls much needed money out of the public school system, and in many cases leaves the students unable to deal with positive or negative social situations that randomly arise in school.
>>Where in society is bullying and name calling accepted? <<
Not accepted in society but it still happens to most of us. why not deal with that as a kid?
>>There isn't ONE that indicates to you that I am a happy person? :) What about my posts makes you think I am angry? <<
I can't think of one post that makes you seem happy. You are in pain, have received predjudicial treatment over race and size, you have a history of abuse and mistreatment and you tend to go on at length in flame wars with several people. I'd like to think that there are happyier topics for you but you certainly don't emphasise them here in this tribe.
If your kids are happy and healthy being home schooled then more power to you. Just my opinion that in general home schooling is worse for society in general then better.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 10:53 AM>>homeschooling pulls much needed money out
>>of the public school system,
This leaves me nonplussed, all the homeschoolers I know continue to pay their taxes and keeping their kids home improves the teacher/student ratio. They don't get vouchers or tax breaks or anything. They don't get reimbursed for their outlay for resources, another place the school system saves money. Quite a few of them involve their children in school activities, guaranteeing the school gets the federal pittance for each student and allowing them to interact with other children.
>>and in many cases
>>leaves the students unable to deal with
>>positive or negative social situations
>>that randomly arise in school.
Oh, I bet you mean like having a teacher grab a 12 yo and ripped her pentagram off her neck because she said something that pissed him off, don't you. That was a good learning experience. At least he didn't throw the Bible he kept on his desk at her. She got suspended for it and he got time off with pay. Maybe you are right. That sort of thing really reinforces a loathing of what main stream religion is about and the failure of the system to protect minorities that could not be learned at home.
And I was so impressed with teacher. One day I sat in one his class. They were studying vulcanism. He asked the children to name a volcano starting with . . .the children could not come up with an answer. He told them they were stupid and he was thinking of Pompeii.
>>I can't think of one post that makes you seem happy.
Well, I guess that makes me sad and angry then. :) This accusation often is made of me by people who disagree with me, so there must be something about the way I present my information that falsely gives that impression. Most of the people who know me consider me at least a cheerful person. . .and I have been called "terminally perky".
>>You are in pain,
I'm thinking you mean emotional, and I'm not. Physical pain, now THAT'S a different story. But I've adjusted to the idea that I will probably never be able to regain the full use of my body and am content to play World of Warcraft.
>>have received predjudicial treatment over race
>>and size, you have a history of abuse and mistreatment
And I've also found huge amounts of support, throughout my life. But we aren't talking about when people of other races have supported us, we are talking about racism. And, I guess you missed the post where I said that I have NOT suffered discrimination because of my size. Did I mention that I got my current job competing against 4 other women who were 20 somethings and conventionally lovely? I was just upfront, I told the interviewer that they might prefer a prettier, younger woman at the front desk but I could show him why they wanted ME? <smile>
>>you tend to go on at length in flame wars with several people
Continually re-stating your point in order to get people to understand is NOT a flame war. Really, truly. The Internet and I have so mellow since this was my sig line
Gwenny the Pooh, BsD
Skepticult member #156-365280-795
Knight of the Double Entendre
Patron Saint of the Jackmormons
Official Holysmoke Pooh Scourge of the Fundies
#1 Warlock of alt.pagan and alt.witchcraft
Sex is NOT the answer. Sex is the question. YES is the answer.
THIS IS A FLAME WAR. LOL
About someone else:
"I poop more Alexandrian that you will ever be you pathetic country club poser" Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft (tm)
About me:
>"You know, I think I finally get it, At first, I thought this bitch was
> just some man hating Dianic dyke who was just taking out her frustrations on
> me because I represent all of the healthy a virile males who won't touch her
> with a ten-foot condom.
and this is kind of the nicest things he said about me, calling me Gwenny the Poop and Gwenny the Hut. Just not interested in spending much time looking up some of the really fun exchanges. . like the one that resulted in the above man threatening to come and kidnap my other daughter. IF you are interested, do a search in Google Groups for "Raelin Firestorm is a Warlock"
>>If your kids are happy and healthy being home
>>schooled then more power to you.
My childrean WERE homeschooled, except for Rachel, they are all adults. My daughter got 800 out of 800 on the science portion of the test for her diploma. The ones still home have jobs, are respected members of their various communities and have never smoked, done drugs, stayed out late or committed criminals acts (well, the one pulled the fire alarm when he was ten and still in school). My big complaint is I have to whine to get the dishwasher loaded. :)
>>Just my opinion that in general home
>>schooling is worse for society in general then better.
I respect your opinion and point out that statistics seem to indicate otherwise. :) -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 3, 2006 - 3:46 PM>>>>If your kids are happy and healthy being home
>>schooled then more power to you. <<
Gwenny, like I said, more power to you.
I think that wherever you live they must be hiring teachers out of the bargain basement bin. My two children are proud products of the local public school system where they are also doing quite well. As oppossed to closed minded, the local high school has a pretty active alternativesexuality group and teachers who have (mostly) been caring and compassionate professionals.
As far as not being discriminated against due to your size, that's good too, although the story you use to illustrate that sounds like someone overcoming a handicap. You are painting yourself there as someone who would be expected to fail, rather as a typical person as qualified as any other person. Also, what if the petite women had some kickass skills? Is that reverse discrimination?
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 3, 2006 - 2:54 PM"Where in society is bullying and name calling accepted? Where else in society is it a police state where the main things you need to learn are how to stand in line quietly, how to sit quietly and how to follow orders without question?"
the military? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 3, 2006 - 5:06 PM>>"Where in society is bullying and name calling accepted?
>>Where else in society is it a police state where the main
>>things you need to learn are how to stand in line quietly,
>>how to sit quietly and how to follow orders without question?"
>the military?
Bingo! And prison.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 11:22 PM<did anyone read the article.>
the first post was the article. yeah i read it.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:32 AMI don't want to compare the suffering of different groups except to say we've all been colonized, and we've all been the colonizers at one point or another.
Regarding size, no, there haven't been lynchings of fat people, but I think it's because all the hatred is internalized. Look at what people do to their own bodies in the name of thinness: Eating disorders, which, btw, have the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorders, plastic surgery, stomach and intestine removal, pills that kill, buying any old crap on TV and ingesting it--putting it into your body!--in the hopes of gaining the rewards of thinness. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:44 AMOMG you are beautiful! I love your hair! And that caftan is cool too! -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 1:02 PMI am going to be extremely honest here and say, that I do have a prejudice against extremely obese people. I am saying this to open up a dialogue, not to be offensive, and I really am interested to try to work this through some.
My sister is extremely obese, and although she is not naturally inclined to be thin, and no one should feeel the pressure we do feel to live up to that bogus ideal of the thin body, at least half of her weight is there because she never exercises and eats huge quantities of extremely unhealthy food, to the point of ridiculousness. I do see her condition as a problem for her, just as bad as an eating disorder or a drug addiction out of control. She has serious health problems do to her behaviour, and refuses to do anything to take care of herself. So, although I don't think she needs to be a size 8, I also think she has a really big responsibility for letting herself get to over 500 pounds. I have personally watched her make the choices that led to it, and to refuse help or guidance at every step of the way. My mother has the same genetics as her, the same body type, but is concious of her eating habits (I mean she eats healthy food and good portions (although she doesn't diet), as opposed to tons of junk food in the super-extra-biggie-size range), and gets exercise, and is certainly not thin, but also not ridiculously big, and I have no feelings of prejudice towards her at all, or other folks in that kind of range of size.
I also realize that my prejudice isn't helpful, and the more I put judgement on extremely obese people, like my sister, the more she will internalize self-hate, which I believe is at the root of many such folk's lifestyle choices. In a way, my prejudice, I believe, is actually feeding (sorry for the awful pun) the problem. I also realize that any prejudice is a problem, and I have been trying to get over this one (almost my only one), and its really difficult, and especially because it is a really socially acceptable prejudice to have.
Obesity (which I think is different than just being a larger person) is not completely the fault of the obsese person, but it is a serious health issue that should be dealt with, and can be minimized in healthy ways. We have an epidemic of diabetes and many other serious health risks (heart disease, cancers, etc etc) related to unhealthy life styles and poor health choices. I do understand that a lot of this comes from the blatant profiteering of the corporate food industries, but I also understand that people can meake healthier choices if they make it a priority. I have been exptremely poor at times in my life, but still found ways to eat healthy, even organic at times, because it was my priority.
I am a canadian. In Canada, cigarettes and alcohol, and other types of health damaging products, are taxed more heavily in order to offset the extra costs to the publicly funded health care system. There is a movement to put the same costs onto junk foods for the same reason. Our system will be (and already is starting to be) overwhelmed with the economic fallout from the current diabetes epidemic related to obesity, related to irresponsible food marketing. In this way, maybe obesity wouldn't be as much of an economic issue, because it would once again be less expensive for lower income people to buy healthy foods rather than junk food. And it would help to stop food industry corporations from shamelessly profiteering off the unhealth of the poor. I love having public health care, but I don't think corporations should be able to off-set the true cost of their products onto it.
I really belive that this is a big part of my prejudice. As a fairly active individual, who seeks out knowledge and seeks to make lifestyle choices that will have a lesser negative impact on the world around me, while not contributing to the bottom line of corporations that ruthlessly exploit and harm people, I have a hard time watching people ruin their health while supporting corporate food, industrial agribusiness, gmo products, etc., when they could be making other choices. I often see these same people claiming none of it is their fault, using the "victim" mentality, which I do not support. It brings up the same types of feelings I get for single-occupancy drivers in huge SUVs sporting support the war stickers.
I want to qualify all of this by saying that no child should ever be bullied, and certainly never be told that it is their fault. . . if anything I beleive that could lead to serious internalisation of self-hatred and even worse health problems in future. However, bullying is a larger issue in schols today, and in many situations officials are really terrible at dealing with it. I've heard of other kids being told it was their fault when it had to do with other reasons, like wearing big glasses or not having expensive enough clothes. Its really terrible, and I think indicative of a larger lack compassion in our society.
I also agree that acocmidations should be made for larger people in terms of seating sizes, etc, at least to make a few such places available. Shaming people into changing, or keeping them out of public places will only aggravate the problem. However, I still think it is a problem, not a completely uncontrollable victimisation.
do you want to try to change my mind? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 5:59 PMI don't have the energy right now to address every fat issue there is, but I can refer you to this recent article:
www.college.ucla.edu/news/05...udy.html
Although some diseases are correllated with obesity, it does not mean fat causes them. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 6:07 PM<<Although some diseases are correllated with obesity, it does not mean fat causes them.>>
Isn't that what cigarette companies said about their product for years? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 8:58 AMYes, it is, except that with fat there is no overwhelming significant pattern. About half the studies say fat causes health problems, half say they don't. And yet there is a 40 Billion dollar weight loss industry supporting one side and who supports the other? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:00 PMI've yet to see any longitudinal study that shows prolonged obesity isn't a serious health problem.
"there is a 40 Billion dollar weight loss industry supporting one side and who supports the other?"
there are small companies you may have heard of like McDonalds (2004 revenues of $19B that want you to believe weight and fat intake are not health issues There's your 'other side'.
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:12 PMThank you for sharing. The reasons for being fat are myriad. I, personally, don't think the genetic component is that large. I can tell you my battle with fat, at least to give you some idea what can be behind it. But I can't change your mind, only you can do that. And I can't speak for anyone else's problems, only the lifetime of trauma that has shaped who I am. :) If we do want to pursue this, we probably ought to start a new thread.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 1:40 PMThanks, Gwenny--laughing--what do you think of what I wrote? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:24 PMI like it. And I think you make some good points. With other types of prejudice, a person can be defiant, develop self esteem and fight back. With fat, our own worst enemy is ourselves and the tapes that run through out heads. Stupid, fat, ugly, no one will ever love you. . .you are a fat slut just like your mother. . . There is nothing anyone can say to us that is more horrible than what we tell ourselves.
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 12:24 PM<I think it's because all the hatred is internalized. Look at what people do to their own bodies in the name of thinness: Eating disorders, which, btw, have the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorders, plastic surgery, stomach and intestine removal, pills that kill, buying any old crap on TV and ingesting it--putting it into your body!>
a very good point.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 12:58 PM"It doesn't seem to matter that research indicates that fat people are fat because of heredity and metabolic factors"
a recent study, the most comprehensive and long reaching longitudinal study ever done (I think over 30 years) showed that it was all about calories in and calories out. Excepting a very small minority of folks with issues like thyroid dysfunction.
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 2:13 PMI think there is a huge difference between people who are prone to be heavier then the American stereotype of beauty but who keep themselves healthy by being active, eating sensibly and/or excercising, and people who become medically grossly obese.
While I certainly am not advocating cruelty or emotionally damaging treatment I do think that it would be a positive step to have the root cause of their gross obesity dignosed and treated. While it's nice to see people keeping a positive self image, I think that it is potentially harmful to encourage an attitude that somehow obesity is a desired state. How about more of a mental approach where you love your inner you and commit to a more healthful lifestyle without any attempt to meet our societies beauty expectations? Again, I'm talking about gross obesity, not a curvy person or someone "not thin". -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 5:38 PMRich, I wonder where you get the term "grossly" obese from? I've never heard it used as a medical term before. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 5:44 PM -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 6:01 PMThanks, I just want to say that I really would prefer the term "fat" to describe my size. My size is not a medical condition. I don't like it when people seem to think I could keel over any minute because of the way my body looks. It's just not the way I like to go about things.
The medicalization of a body size is nothing less than facism. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 6:55 PMOcean Earth...I used the term "grossly obese" (morbidly obese works as well) BECAUSE I was trying to point out the difference between someone like yourself who is healthy, and if the photos in your profile are a true indication, active.
I was referring to people who ballon up to a weight where they basically can not move, and have associated health problems. People who likely could keel over at any minute due to the health issues they face from carrying around so much body weight. In a case like that, medicalization of body size is not fascism, it's a way to have a real look at people's ongoing health and a way to hopefully create a more healthful and satisfying life with medical or physcological interventions. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 9:00 AMThanks for clarifying that Rich, and I understand that you probably think that not being mobile is a really bad thing, and I agree. I just don't want to have such a me/not me dichotomy in my life. How to quantify mobility? How to quantify quality of life? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sun, April 9, 2006 - 3:54 PM<<How to quantify mobility?>>
If this even has to be addressed, there's a problem.
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:32 PM>>The medicalization of a body size is nothing less than facism.
Hear, hear! A lot of people think my fibromyalgia is a result of my weight. Ironically, it struck me when I was making good progress. I had lost 80 pounds, been walking three miles every morning and maintaining a dairy and wheat free lifestyle. As the winter set in my exercise buddy and I decided to start going to the gym. Within a week I was in so much pain, I could barely move. But I kept going, because I thought the pain would pass. It took me ending up in bed for weeks to bring it home to me that I had messed up. I was so tired I turned down SEX!
Of course, except for fibro I'm disturbingly healthy. Total cholesterol of right around 100, all my blood stats RIGHT EXACTLY mid-line of the normal range, bp 124/75. The first time my doctor saw it she thought the lab made a mistake. She could'nt believe that it was my test. <snigger> -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Thu, March 30, 2006 - 11:47 PMOoops - wrong kind of Sizism :-}
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 9:03 AMI really understand that. I can remember times in the past when I was feeling weak and pushed myself to exercise more, because of course, I felt weak because I was fat, when actually I was coming down with a frakin' COLD or something! That's how brainwashed I was. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 9:39 AM>>I felt weak because I was fat, when actually I was coming
>>down with a frakin' COLD or something! That's how brainwashed I was.
Yep. The most well adjusted of us are still vulnerable. I know I am. I have wanted for years to go into inspirational speaking. I mean, a lot of folks give up when just one traumatic thing happens. I want them to know that ANYTHING you can walk away from breathing you can get over. Rape, incest, armed robbery, assault, death of child, kidnapping of child, having children victimized physically and sexually, hurricane, blizzard, abusive husband, abusive society. . .the power to continue is in YOUR hands.
And I have the qualifications. I majored in Drama in college and had drama throughout my public school life. I have almost five years in Toastmasters, including being a district officer and club president, I have hosted and now produce my own television show. And I have experienced almost everything bad that can happen.
So what stops me? Well, besides the fibromyalgia now. My weight. I am afraid. . no, I KNOW . . .that no matter how much progress I have made, people will not see a woman who has weathered almost every storm life can offer and NOT become an addict, committed suicide or ended up in a mental hospital. They will not see woman in a stable happy relationship with healthy adult children and a good job she loves, surrounded by an extensive network of friends who love her. They will see a fat woman who they think lacks the self control to monitor her own eating.
I know, my family says just get over it. LOL -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 11:19 AM"They will not see woman in a stable happy relationship with healthy adult children and a good job she loves, surrounded by an extensive network of friends who love her. They will see a fat woman who they think lacks the self control to monitor her own eating. "
I think we can see both. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 12:01 PM>>I think we can see both.
Except that I can and do control my eating. I just can't exercise. :) Some days I wake up in so much pain, I can't even take the sprinklers out to water the grass and vegetables. That's why my son is building me a Rube Goldberg garden watering system. :)
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Fri, March 31, 2006 - 2:04 PMfacism is a form of government. Just sayin. It has nothing to do with the fact that carrying around a lot of extra weight (even if it's all muscle) is tough on your heart.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 12:01 AMI can't help that when having a discussion about social issues around fat, people always start bringing out the numbers, something that fascists are wont to do. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 12:59 PMWhat do you mean by, "...bringing out the numbers..."?
Are you referring to research statistics? If so, I don't see how backing up an opinion with research/statistics is facist.
Now if you're talking about things like body mass index, then we can talk because I know damn well that at 6'5" tall I would be positively emaciated at 210 pounds, which is the MOST I could weigh and still stay in the Normal Weight class.
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 3, 2006 - 2:59 PMCPAs
MBAs
Psychologists
Researchers
Motor Sport Enthusiasts
Animators
Editors
Contractors
Athletes and their Coaches
their obsession with numbers makes them all fascists?
try this on for size
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
-
This post was deleted by Rich
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 3, 2006 - 3:31 PMoops
sorry
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 12:53 PM<< Today, fat people are assumed to be inherently ugly, stupid, unsanitary, lazy, and enslaved by creature comforts. Such stereotypes are reinforced by both the media and the public. Even in "politically correct" circles, where one would never hear derogatory remarks about people of color, gays and lesbians, or people with disabilities, one continues to hear disparaging remarks about fat people. >>
I don't think you can say that fat people are considered to be inherently ugly, stupid, unsanitary, lazy, and enslaved by creature comforts. I don't see those prejudices in those around me.
I do have a personal prejudice, though, which is that most fat people are unhappy in the way that an alcoholic or drug addict is unhappy. They need something to console themselves with because they don't like something about their life, and feel unempowered to change it.
It's not that I don't think there aren't any happy fat people. I felt happy for many of the years that I was an alcoholic. But I do think the clinging to food, drugs, or alcohol is indicative of a deeper, unresolved issue.
I was bulimic for 15 years and know what it's like to comfort myself with food. I have also been dependent on drugs and alcohol in the past. And what I sought with food was very similar to what I sought with regular drug/alcohol use: a self-indulgent, sometimes much needed solace that I looked forward to all day. And I think the need for that reflects a maladjustment.
I also don't see fat as a particularly feminist issue. We definitely have a problem with the glorification of the unhealthily thin female body. Lobbying to present healthier female images in the media is a feminist issue. But to me it doesn't make sense to argue that feminist organizations should adopt pro-fat campaigns, unless they also lobby against discrimination of obese men.
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 5:33 PMBigotry is bigotry, no matter what form it takes or target they choose...
So, at what point to folks say "enough is enough", and get down off their moral high horses of "turn the other cheek" (or the all time favorite, "You just got to rise above it" excuse), and start insulting bigots' ignorance openly and publicly?
Have the reason why these folks pull this kind of BS, is because they think society is "behind them".
If everyone did their part and called such BS when they saw it (to the people's faces), I bet society might change a little.
As for sitting around and "discussing it", I'm sorry, I know awareness is important, but if I'm going to talk to someone about the B.S. of bigotry, I'm going to do it with the bigots themselves, in front of God and everybody.
A soul is a soul, no matter the flesh which encases it, and all are entitled to the same respect that they afford others. No more, and no less...
Amything else, and we are only short-changing ourselves. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sun, April 2, 2006 - 5:24 PM>>>If everyone did their part and called such BS when they saw it (to the people's faces), I bet society might change a little.<<<
Yeah, that's for sure.. it's called "civil war".
>>A soul is a soul, no matter the flesh which encases it<<
real talk
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sun, April 2, 2006 - 4:00 PMSpeaking as someone who has been on both sides of the fat fence....
There most certainly is a definite prejudice against fat people. As a fat child I suffered the ridicule of my peers, my siblings even my parents. I ate what they put on my plate. I was active in sports. I got fat anyway. I stayed that way until at 14 I took up smoking cigarettes. Nirvana! Instead of eating I could starve myself and smoke and not be hungry. I lost 125 pounds. The teasing stopped. I was normal for the first time in my life. My lungs took a pounding but hey! I was normal!
Flash foward -- after gaining and losing that same 100 pounds a time or two...
I was a size 11. and I know there's people who think being "big boned" is a myth. But I looked in the mirror one day after a shower and saw what looked like a concentration camp survivor. My collarbone stuck out about an inch. My knees were bigger than a child's head. My hip bones were angular and hard. Sex hurt. I weighed 175 pounds. Put simply I was disgusted with what I saw and made a conscious decision to gain weight.
Flash foward more -- I was on the South Beach Diet for all of 2005 and still loosly follow it now. I'll never be thin ever but I am at a size that I like. The difference though is how I cope with the ignoramii who comment on my size. Folks, I am what I am. I realize there will always be prejudices as long as there are people. And I have no shortage of people who love me or lust after me. I've just learned how to plug into people who appreciate me for who I am and let the rest of them burn in their own spit. As far as I'm concerned they can go fuck themselves cause my life is rich and I'm enjoying it. Success *is* the best revenge.
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sat, April 8, 2006 - 12:45 PMWhile I sympathize with getting picked on, I don't think discrimination against fat people is anywhere close to a civil rights issue. A health issue maybe, as a morbidly obese person is more likely to have a lengthy, expensive, and preventable illness which society will pay for.
In a world where millions go hungry each day around the world, and Americans enforce their hegemony over the world's resources at point of sword, gluttony is perhaps the worst sin an American can commit. Try to explain to a starving orphan in Sudan or Sri Lanka that here in America, people are actually DYING from eating too much food.
Certainly there are people whose glands, regardless of diet give them a higher percentage of body fat and other unhealthy aspects, but it's a tired excuse exploited by the rest of us to rationalize our own greed. For most of us, fat is the physical side effect of gluttony. The fact our society makes gluttony synonymous with patriotism does not change that. We are still buying the Family Pak of Sugar Blobs and then eating it all at our desk.
As for the idolization of anorexic waifs, this too is a symptom of our gluttonous culture. Keep in mind that in the middle ages and Renaissance, only the wealthy could afford to be fat. For the rest of European society is was a constant struggle against starvation and pestilence. Plumpness was a sign of health and prosperity, and the idealization of fat people is reflected in the art of the time. Compare the Venus of the Middle Ages with how the goddess of love would be portrayed today.
We know it's wrong, too. Our society is perverse in this and many other ways, seperated from the natural order of things to an obscene extent. This causes constant stress, especially in urban settings. And what is the body's common reaction to stress? It seeks out more sugar and fat!
When desperate and hungry people around the world see a nation of chubby people arrogantly defending their right to consume more than they need to survive, they smell empire. And I can't say I blame them.
Part of the problem lies in our biological predilection for fat and sugar. In the primitive world of the hunter-gatherer, fats are incredibly difficult to come by. Hunting is the least efficient food-gathering method for most cultures, accounting for a miniscule percentage of caloric intake. But they keep doing it because fats are hard to come by in much of the vegetable kingdom. It's easy to scoff at this, we who have access to an overabundance of animal and vegetable foods of all types, from every corner of the globe. But our evolutionary needs have not changed with our technology advances. Or our sedentary post-industrial society
The ancient Celts used to tax the fat. Back then, if you were fat, it meant you could afford to contribute to the common wealth. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sun, April 9, 2006 - 11:06 AMIn a world where millions go hungry each day around the world, and Americans enforce their hegemony over the world's resources at point of sword, gluttony is perhaps the worst sin an American can commit. Try to explain to a starving orphan in Sudan or Sri Lanka that here in America, people are actually DYING from eating too much food.
++++
exactly
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sun, April 9, 2006 - 7:14 PMI was gonna stay out of this discussion, but when I read this post and saw stuff like:
>>When desperate and hungry people around the world see a nation of chubby people arrogantly defending their right to consume more than they need to survive, they smell empire. And I can't say I blame them.
..I just had to pass through and cosign. THAT is some REAL TALK, right there!
Size and race are on two totally different footings as issues. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Sun, April 9, 2006 - 7:25 PMAn interesting notation about size and culture. Back when I lost a bunch of weight most of my white friends and co-workers kept telling me how great I looked while many of my black and Latino friends and co-workers were telling me to be careful not to get too skinny!
While this in no way indicates any correlation between size and race discrimination I do think it is an interesting note on cultural perceptions of beauty. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 12:19 AM>>An interesting notation about size and culture. Back when I lost a bunch of weight most of my white friends and co-workers kept telling me how great I looked while many of my black and Latino friends and co-workers were telling me to be careful not to get too skinny!<<
**co-signs again**
yea, fa sho'! Don't do THAT.. (lol)
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 12:25 AM"We are still buying the Family Pak of Sugar Blobs and then eating it all at our desk. " Who does this? I don't know anyone who does this, and this is exactly the kind of stereotypical thought that is so shaming and actually perpetuates the problem.
I don't eat refined sugar, no caffeine, rarely alcohol, no junk food, much less "sugar blobls" but why do I even feel the need to justify my deserving of basic rights? Because people don't think I deserve them, that's why. If I was a thin person eating a bunch of "sugar blobs" no one would say a word.
I understand what you're saying about imperialism, but the progressive left should be embracing rights for everyone, and not seeing fat people as only fat republicans. Anyway, who in any poor country would see fat Americans? Our media rarely portrays us. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 12:33 AMActually, in countries with scarce food supplies fat is attractive--big really IS beautiful in the third world...so I've read. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 1:03 PMin countries with scarce food supplies fat is attractive-
It's been this way through the ages. Why do you think there are so many plump women in Mideavil frescos? Food was a precious commodity and the poor couldn't afford a whole lot of it. They dreamed of having plump women in their bed. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Tue, April 11, 2006 - 12:48 PMbut the hip to waist ratio of attractiveness remains a relative constant -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Tue, April 11, 2006 - 1:04 PMStuart are you refering to my comment on cultural perspective? Yes, I think you are right that hip to waist ratio is often a constant but not always. And some perceptions are just culturally influenced. The idolization of the super skinny model type actually violates the waist to hip ratio much of the time and there are some black women who quite frankly don't have much waistline and Latinas as well and it just isn't considered as big a deal that they are not slim and petite. Now not having a flat butt IS considered a much bigger deal to many blacks and latinos but even then the hip to waist ratio isn't always maintained.
I have also found though interestingly enough that when I was getting into shape that many of my British friends were telling me they liked my full figure more but a couple of French and German friends were really into encouraging my weight loss. Some may just be anecdotal coincidence so I try not to read too much into it, but I did wonder what cultural influences were perhaps at play. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Wed, April 12, 2006 - 1:06 PM"The idolization of the super skinny model type actually violates the waist to hip ratio much of the time "
marilyn monroe and kate moss have the same ratio -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Wed, April 12, 2006 - 1:25 PMmarilyn monroe and kate moss have the same ratio
Not only that but most people don't realize MM was a size 16. Quite hefty for a celebrity and of course sought after by most of the male population.
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Wed, April 12, 2006 - 1:32 PMI've worked with enough models to know that only some of them actually have that same ratio. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Wed, April 12, 2006 - 1:38 PMAlso the hip to waist ratio doesn't always mean anything considering if you are starving yourself (like many models do) your waist will sink in while your hips stick out. You could still be hour glassed but quite unhealthy.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 7:52 AMOcean Earth - if you are obese you are eating more than you need to and you are taking food away from people who are starving. No wonder people in third world countries hate us. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 8:39 AM"if you are obese you are eating more than you need to and you are taking food away from people who are starving."
You're kidding, right? What you're saying is that if I refrained from over-eating, the food I didn't consume would be sent to starving countries? That's preposterous. America already produces an over-abundance of food. That's why our government pays farms to refrain from growing certain crops.
Also, if second and third world countries hate us so much, how come our immigration numbers aren't lower? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 8:49 AMIf we didn't overeat there would be more food. And yes, we do export food to other countries.
If you think people don't hate Americans you are living in a bubble. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 10:30 AMI didn't say everybody from third world countries loves America. That would be just as simple and overly generalized as saying that everybody from third world countries hates America.
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 10:33 AM<<<If we didn't overeat there would be more food. And yes, we do export food to other countries. >>>
Wrong.
Any economist can tell you all about surplus value.
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 1:16 PMthe problem is not the paucity of supply. It's the distribution.
Of all the tonnage that's sent over seas the majority of it goes to those in charge. It's doled out to favored individuals for loyalty and withheld from others as punishment.
In lots of places the supply line is so bad that the food goes to waste right on the docks.
anyone who doesn't believe the US distributes food around the world needs to to a bit of research for instance:
www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.ns...a900085511
www.irinnews.org/frontpage.asp
www.reliefweb.int/library/d...%20report'
www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp
But you get the idea.... -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 1:26 PMOh yeah and the logic that someone buying too much food here causes someone in Africa to starve to death is ludicris.
The food that's in the supermarkets here is already taken out of the supply. If it's not bought and eaten it spoils and is written off for taxes. It becomes a total loss. so the logic really doesn't apply.
If you want to blame someone blame the marketing folks - they all know that people will buy more from full bins than from near empty ones. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 3:10 PMWhy should we blame the marketing folks for catering to what they know the average consumer wants? Shouldn't we blame the consumer for being more likely to buy from full bins rather than empty ones? -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Tue, April 11, 2006 - 1:33 PMShouldn't we blame the consumer for being more likely to buy from full bins rather than empty ones?
The age old question -- does prostitution exist because men will pay for it, or does it exist because women will provide it?
No real answer to that one.
What I can tell you -- because I'm in the business is that this tidbit was found through testing and research on what will make consumers spend more. You dont' realize how much *everything* in a supermarket or store is carefully placed for the maximum subliminal effect on the consumer. They are merely taking advantage of human instinct. And yes it is deliberate.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 12:54 PM"if second and third world countries hate us so much, how come our immigration numbers aren't lower?"
because it sucks to be on the loosing side when your life and freedom are on the line. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 4:13 PMha, yea, that logic of "well if *they* all want to come here, we must be totally benevolent, and our foriegn policy is just peachy!" always gets me. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 5:00 PMWhat came first the chicken or the egg? -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 5:12 PMthe egg actually. Reptiles were laying eggs long before they split into birds. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Tue, April 11, 2006 - 7:17 AMI almost feel as though there are two seperate issues here. One is the often ignored and sometimes acceptable insulting and picking on of overweight people and the other is opposing view points about society and causation of obesity and social responsibility.
As far as insulting an overweight person I don't in any way support or dismiss that. Insulting an obese person based on their weight is an insult of humanity and as such is not OK. Insults of humanity hurt us all whether it be about class, weight, sex, ethnicity, education or illness. That being said, there is still no validity to the comparison of discriminations.
I think it's important that larger size people speak up and state their desire to be treated as whole human beings. What I find very concerning though is that these days is that the line between accepting ones larger "healthy" size and accepting unhealthy obesity is often very blurred and I think that is a diservice to us all.
www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/...ap/index.html -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Tue, April 11, 2006 - 1:35 PMYuni -- Yeah! what you said!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 8:50 AM>>Ocean Earth - if you are obese you are eating more than you need to and
It's not that simple. The problem is combination of eating traditions (based on an active, agrarian lifestyle), lack of nutritional food inspite of the apparent plenty, and a society that is becoming increasingly sedentary.
>>you are taking food away from people who are starving. No wonder people in third world countries hate us.<<
What planet do you live on? There is food in warehouses RIGHT NOW rotting. The US Govt (with our taxes) purchases massive amounts of grains, dairy products and other agricultural produce to support prices. If we care about the rest of the world, that food would be shipped to people who need. After the tsunami I was so pissed, because *IF* I had been president I would have gotten right on the phone and told the military to load up every cargo plane we have with this excess and fly it right out.
The problem is NOT that there are enough resources, it's that rich people in America have a stake in maintaining the myth of scarcity. -
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 10:30 AMWhat Gwenny said.
-
Re: Sizism - One of the Last "Safe" Prejudices
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 10:41 AMmaintaining the myth of scarcity
+++++
Rampant obestiy feeds into the myth of scarcity?
-
-
-
-
-