To the extent that sarcasm and insulting jokes are underhanded or devious and hard for others to prove..it approaches dishonest (if it is not already).

Insulting jokes offer a sweet innocent cover for less savory feelings that hide behind it. Sarcasm offers an ambigious, vague, and diffusive cover for hostility, hate, anger and such..and are hard to address directly and efficiently.

Because it takes significant energy and time to confront people in their twisted humor and witty sarcasm with no real assurance that one can prove the true feelings and thoughts behind them, I suspect most of these expressions go unchecked; thusly, they become a tool for the passive agressive. So when these expression do get confronted, the joker or sarcastic person may get surpriced and may almost call "foul" because others do not share the humor and may even blame others for acting rude and insulting themselves for such confrontation.

How do you deal/confront people when they make insulting jokes and sarcastic remarks?
posted by:
350ppm
SF Bay Area
  • Alex, I have seen you before post that you don't appreciate sarcasm and humor much. I get what you are saying but I don't think that someone using sarcasm is always seeking to cover hostility or hate. Different people have different forms of communication. Some people appreciate humor and witty sarcasm and feel at ease communicating that way. I agree it isn't always appropriate but that doesn't mean it is always negative.
    For many people humor is a way of being more honest not less honest.
  • how do i deal?

    it depends. it is possible that i actually agree with the insult or the sarcasm. in that case, i take the humor at face value and laugh. if i dont agree, but am basically neutral with regard to the subject of the insult or sarcasm then i make a semi-conscious choice about my reaction. usually, i just go along with it and laugh again.

    how do i deal (assuming i disagree with the insult/sarcasm fundamentally)? and/or how do i confront?

    in general, if i disagree with the humor i will just ignore it - altho occasionally i might laugh anyway because i can respect the wit - if not the reasons behind it.

    if we hit the extreme circumstance, where i disagree vehemently with either the insult or the choice to use sarcasm. the only realistic responses are to fight or to flight. flight - looks the same as a moderate disagreement - i will just ignore it and/or take myself away from the person/place that is engaging in the torment.

    to fight/confront is so rare, that i dont have a good answer for you. if i feel like i can engage at the same level for awhile - i might try insulting humor or sarcasm in response. this will usually get the message to the person that i disagree vehemently. of course, then i am painting a target on myself... theres an expression that you should not start a fight that you arent prepared to win - i agree with it - but admit that i dont follow it, and have "lost" enough times that i get bitter about it.

    trying other tacks, like getting them to acknowledge their insulting tone is not-cool or whatever - rarely works. ive tried it more often, but as youve experienced, it is rarely worth the effort expended.

    thus my only advice to you is to sharpen your wit-tools and learn to insultingly-joke and sarcastically-respond in a manner that would allow you to "win your point" against the aggressor. good luck with that... (and NO, that luck-wish was NOT sarcastic, geez)
  • I actually think that constant "Namaste" and "we are out to make the world better so long as you believe in the hippy crunchy perspective exactly as I do because I am so enlightened" kind of talk while all the while being slightly condescending to those that don't agree and "I will throw on a little smiley face at the end of my post as I do it" - thing that people do so often on Tribe is much more passive aggressive than sarcasm or humor.
    • "I actually think that constant "Namaste" and "we are out to make the world better so long as you believe in the hippy crunchy perspective exactly as I do because I am so enlightened" kind of talk while all the while being slightly condescending to those that don't agree and "I will throw on a little smiley face at the end of my post as I do it" - thing that people do so often on Tribe is much more passive aggressive than sarcasm or humor."

      Gobbless you, Yuni. Gobless...
    • I'm with yuni on this one too. Plus, pretending to be nice is hardly honest and it seems to me that sarcasm, when aimed directly at someone not just about an idea or some such, is pretty directly aggressive (nothing passive about it). I'm seriously starting to wonder if most people even know what passive aggressive means (and no, I'm not being sarcastic).

      Continually starting threads that constantly seek to obliquely critique or negatively comment upon the behavior of others (with the associated assumption that one's personal preferences and tastes are somehow superior or "right") would be an example of a form of passive aggression. While, of course, the poster can hide behind the claim that they're proposing a "neutral" subject, the claims of neutrality seem less than honest and more like a thinly veiled attempt to criticize without being direct and honest. Of course, it's pretty funny too if one can look at this contradictory behavior from a humorous angle - just as most behavior that invites satire is.

      !Alex! - You've already said that you don't really have much of a sense of humor. Why do you keep proposing that just because you don't find things funny that there's something wrong with other people and how they communicate?
      • >>Continually starting threads that constantly seek to obliquely critique or negatively comment upon the behavior of others (with the associated assumption that one's personal preferences and tastes are somehow superior or "right") would be an example of a form of passive aggression. While, of course, the poster can hide behind the claim that they're proposing a "neutral" subject, the claims of neutrality seem less than honest and more like a thinly veiled attempt to criticize without being direct and honest. <<

        hear hear.
        • I think its cause !Alex! has a crush on me.


          This thread is about me, right?
          • Possibly... Or you could just be jealous of all the attention Yuni's gotten and just *want* this thread to be all about you because you're after her glittering crown of popularity that her clique of "fans" bestowed upon her. Don't hate her because she's beautiful!!!
            • NO. NOT jealous.

              Stop making up crazy lies in your crazy head, Fifi! Crazy lies!!
              • It's all the passiveness, it's driving me insane in the membrane! Daisy.....daisy....

                Oh, right....crazy head! Who you callin' crazy head Willis!
                • "Crazy lies..."

                  ...or are they insane honesty!?! ...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Okay, crazy lady.


                    But in a seriously, humor is often used to be honest without being too mean about it.

                    I do know people who use humor and sarcasm as weapons, and while they are good sparring partners on occasion, in the end it is just another way to be mean, sometimes.

                    I use my humor as a buffer,and cause it's just fun.
                    I do try to not be insulting with it, and hold myself back more often than not from what I COULD say.
                    And I could say plenty.
                    • "hold yourself back"

                      Wed, March 5, 2008 - 12:52 PM
                      what do you mean by "buffer" ?

                      and would you say that holding back is the most honest approach?
                      • Re: "hold yourself back"

                        Wed, March 5, 2008 - 5:36 PM
                        Well, humor as a buffer is ,for me, my defense in a way against the world. I learned it as a kid, it's a great coping tool in it's way.

                        And yes, sometimes you should hold back in honesty. Let me see if I can clearly explain it..

                        There are times when I see a behavior in someone I really find to be annoying, like oh... like I have a rl friend who tends to go toward being challenging in conversations with other people when that other person really doesn't want a confrontation. Whatever their conversation partner said isn't really worth a , it was just a comment made in small talk and not worth a sudden barrage of questions. My friend is a very lovely person and doesn't engage in this behavior all the time. However, when he does, it becomes awkward and rather irritating to everyone else in the conversation. I have seen him do this often enough that I feel as his friend, it may not be amiss in me saying something to him about it. Now, I could go the blunt route and say" Hey, dude, you need to back off and stop being challenging for no disernable reason. People are being to think you are a dick, and I am not stopping them much, as I am beginning to think you are acting like a dick too."
                        Or I could use my humor skills and ask how that beein his bonnet was taking to life in it's new bonnety surrounding as it seems to be buzzing up a storm as of late. Hopefully, something cleverer than that, but you get the jist.

                        Humor can be that pointy stick just as bluntness can be, but with humor you wrap some witty bubble wrap around the pointy stick tip and poke a bit gentler.


                        Something I do see in society and especially television is this revelry in mean ill spirited humor. People poking mean spirited not so fun at people who can't defend themselves. Or glorifying in the weaknesses and failings of others, i.e. the very public falling apart of Britney Spears and people like that.

                        I find that sort of humor a bit too easy, myself and am actually embarrassed for the ones who resort to this sort of humor. Clever humor takes time and energy to point out the fallibles and silliness of human nature and people. Mean spirited insults and jokes just shows you are too lazy to try harder.
                        There are people who can do that sort of hmor well and many a comedian has made a career out of do ing this well.
                        However, I do think people lean on it too much and we dont always think of the consequences of it all. It sort of demeans all of us, really.

                        Sorry for the babble. I had a long day at the mechanics,paying for his new flat screen tv.
                        • Re: "hold yourself back"

                          Wed, March 5, 2008 - 7:49 PM

                          Elaine, do you find yourself holding back here in "extreme honesty"?

                          I don't hold back as much as i focus on what matters to me. If I am annoyed, often it is not annoyance that i want to focus on.. but rather what brought it in me and this self-contemplation often takes me away of the annoyance.

                          I get the impression that some folks think that expressing their "negativity" is their highest form of honesty.. as oppose to working it out within themselves and avoidind the insult they where about to inflict...and just letting a kindler gentler self show through.

                          Much like a painter holds off on the red, despite his tempatation to keep using it, because he or she wants a pink to be pink at the end of the day.. not a redder version...

                          But if the painte really wants to hide his redness from others but yet wants to express it so he/she places a pink..as the hint of the red.. well I would say that is dishonest. No one can ever prove that the painted means a red for the pink.. and there lies the problem with the dishonesty.. it's hard to get at the truth of the matter... so with sarcasm and jokes.. they are a good cover for the passive agressive, and the dishonest.

                          I suppose I have a hard time thinking of completely honest people using sarcasm, I mean, why hide it in such a way as to be misintepreted as a non-insulting comment?
                          • Re: "hold yourself back"

                            Thu, March 6, 2008 - 6:08 AM
                            !Alex! - Um, perhaps using poorly chosen analogies could also be seen as dishonest? Apart from the fact that whatever you're trying to illustrate via your painting analogy (a painter "hide" his "redness"?!?) is poorly served and you've had to distort both the thing being compared and that being compared to to make your analogy, it's also an indirect and circuitous way to attempt to say something. I mean, why hide it in such a way as to be misinterpreted as a non-insulting comment about "redness"?

                            Anything can be a "good cover" for the passive aggressive and dishonest if it serves to conceal their aggression and dishonesty. Pretending to be "nice" or pacifist is a very common cover that's often accompanied by a rather pernicious self deception that gets in the way of personal and social honesty. Many truly passive aggressive people don't acknowledge their own aggressive urges even to themselves, they deulude themselves into thinking they're nice and anyone who doesn't do things their passive way is nasty.

                            Jokes tend to be less of a "good cover" for the passive aggressive since they tend to actually be assertive and direct - just coated in laughter so they're easier to swallow. Seems to me that most of the people who deal the humor card in this tribe have no issues with asserting themselves and speaking their minds.

                            Now, of course, humor is often not actually fluffy and nice - even when it's pretending to be on the surface (British humor is often superficially silly with hidden meaning, for instance) - and it can actually be very pointed (and the best often does point out how ludicrous someone or something is being). It can be joyous or quite sad or angry, humour is just a means of expression not the content (as I believe Fido already said in your other thread about this topic and reiterated here again). Is your real issue with people expressing any emotions you don 't personally like or feel comfortable around?
                            • Re: "hold yourself back"

                              Thu, March 6, 2008 - 9:45 AM
                              yeah, that painter analogy is not one I am very satisfied with.. but i did not want to send too much energy crafting a better one.

                              You know Fifi, I am not suggesting that I don't have any agressiveness in me.. I do have it...passive and active..

                              Recently and in this tribe, I have been focused on what I deem "negative"..even to the extent that i might engage in some of it.. althought not lavishly.

                              Take this post for example... the reason I am exploring issues of insulting jokes and sarcasm is because I have noticed them more and more.. in TV, and here in tribe.. even this tribe here.. so I wanted to discuss it.. I have stated my views on it.. and that's that.

                              There is no aggression on my part in pointing to anyone person who may have acted in this insulting way. (I am just refering to such jokes and such sarcasm that insults others).

                              What I like about posting such things.. are response such as Harold's and FIDORs.. they allow me more clarity into what I may be thinking or feeling. I appreciate your inquiry, that it may try to relate them to the relevancy here..
                              • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                Thu, March 6, 2008 - 9:54 AM
                                !Alex! - "There is no aggression on my part in pointing to anyone person who may have acted in this insulting way. (I am just refering to such jokes and such sarcasm that insults others)."

                                Is it possible that what you keep seeing has more to do with your own perception than the intentions of others? You seem confused about your own intentions in regards to whether you were actually being sarcastic or not, an whether the intent was to be honest or insulting (or both), so it would seem that it would be a bit difficult for you to be able to be clear about other people's intentions in this regard. Why not examine your self before pointing to others as examples? You know, practice self honesty so that you can see a bit more clearly before pointing to others?
                              • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                Thu, March 6, 2008 - 9:57 AM
                                !Alex! - "yeah, that painter analogy is not one I am very satisfied with.. but i did not want to send too much energy crafting a better one."

                                Okay, so you were being too lazy to communicate clearly. It happens. But what about it being a dishonest and circuitous/hidden way to address an issue rather than being straightforward? If you perceive a joke to be indirect and therefore dishonest, how can you see a metaphor as being honest?
                                • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                  Thu, March 6, 2008 - 10:23 AM
                                  oh, Alex.


                                  lighten up. why would you wanna be somewhere that's only
                                  20% fun for you? or is this some kinda free, self-imposed therapy?
                                  or is this more like an attempt at giving the rest of the members
                                  free therapy? and why in gods name would anyone do that???


                                  this is some tedious, tedious shit.
                                  • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                    Thu, March 6, 2008 - 10:46 AM
                                    Maybe !Alex!'s attempting to cast pears before he whines? Or he's mistaken pearls of wisdom for pear seeds hidden in the muck in the pig sty? Hard to tell what's going on with all the mangled analogies being used! Offering others free therapy really seems to be putting the pig in lipstick before the upended bandwagon carrying apples going weeweewee to market to me...or something kinda like that or whatever...
                                  • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                    Thu, March 6, 2008 - 1:05 PM
                                    why would I want to invest energies in things that aren't fun?

                                    I suppose I find greater satisfaction in other things.. entertainment is nice.. but I prefer other ventures..

                                    this posting for example interest me in that it offers me a glipse into certain social interactions.. and certain self discovery..

                                    for example, there have been lots on innuendos about my intentions and such.. and I am quite surpriced that It does not bother me in the least that I may be construed differently...

                                    that i have a crush on Elaine, that I am jealous of ?Yuni?.. that I am conducting an experiment.. etc..

                                    I'm happy to realize that I don't get tickled by that..

                                    this type of discovery is not fun.. but perhaps pleasent..

                                    there are areas that others have pointed out that I am glad to recognize with their help.. for example.. that I tend to confuse delivery with substance.. I am getting to discern the difference.

                                    These tid bits are interesting to me... and I can list more items..

                                    fun is maybe 1 out of 5 or so aspects of reasons I tend to come around.

                                    There are other tribes where I can discuss sarcasm and insulting jokes.. but I got the impression that several members here have a thing of two to say about this..and not necessarily in agreement to my sentiments...
                                    • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                      Thu, March 6, 2008 - 2:22 PM
                                      LOL! Please show me the innuendo that at all suggests that anyone thinks you are jealous of me! Too funny! Feel free to cut and paste the quote if you like because I am just not seeing it anywhere!
                                      Hilarious!
                                      • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                        Thu, March 6, 2008 - 3:43 PM
                                        Ask Fifi, she is the one that suggested jealousy..

                                        I will take the liberty and cut and paste:

                                        :22 AM
                                        Possibly... Or you could just be jealous of all the attention Yuni's gotten and just *want* this thread to be all about you because you're after her glittering crown of popularity that her clique of "fans" bestowed upon her. Don't hate her because she's beautiful!!!

                                        enjoy..
                                        • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                          Thu, March 6, 2008 - 3:51 PM
                                          !Alex! - Ah, that was directed at Elaine and had nothing to do with you whatsoever. Though if you think the shoe fits who am I to argue....
                                          • Re: "hold yourself back"

                                            Thu, March 6, 2008 - 4:03 PM
                                            She, in turn, accused me of being a crazy lady. It was funny.

                                            Though in our family we like to consider it being eccentric or "creative".