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Ecocide in America

topic posted Fri, June 11, 2010 - 5:56 PM by  saffy
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I'm using the prefix "eco" to mean both economics and ecology- because the way the current system is set up we can't separate one from the other- and the suffix "cide" to describe the systematic death of both.

Anyway, it recently occurred to me(not sure what took me so long) that our current economic system is not just absurd, abusive and based on a form of magical thinking far more destructive than the garden-variety versions of magical thinking we're accustomed too (religion, faith and even science based), but that it is in fact KILLING US and damn near EVERYTHING else in the process! We're trying to increase our GDP while effectively decreasing our planets ability to produce that which it needs to maintain life. As in all of LIFE, not just human life.

It's just common sense that any economic law ought to have a built in measure of preserving and protecting the integrity of the planet as a whole, otherwise there's nothing left to protect once we 'use' it all up. We, as a species, seem to have implemented this "use it or lose it" paradigm when in fact our USING it is causing us to LOSE it. But we're losing it for several species...animal, plant, bacteria, etc. all in an effort to supposedly improve the lot of our specific species. WTF? And what are we, the supposed ultimate species, to do when when we've effectively USED up every square acreage of naturally occurring- or, to put it another way, 'non-human interference occurring'- fossil fuels (for oil), rain forests (for medicinal and agro-business)), jungle (for medicinal products), wetlands (for housing), prairies (for agro-business and sub-divisions), deserts (salt, lithium-salt and other minerals for energy storage and food), swamps (housing and theme parks, apparently!), rivers (dumping grounds of industrial waste) bays and oceans (over-fishing and more dumping grounds for yet more waste), etc. You get the picture by now.

The BP Gulf Oil Spill , horrendous as it is for OUR PLANET and more immediately for those in the region, is not the fault of just one single entity. Though, admittedly it feels good to pass the buck. But the truth is that without consumer demand for fossil fuels there would be no drilling- whether offshore or deep. Then again, without realistic alternatives, even those of us that want desperately to be free of fossil fuel dependence are left with little to no option out.

The reason I'm posting this here in EH- as opposed to some 'Save the Earth' tribe- is because this isn't an ecology vs. economy issue, or a liberal vs. conservative, Republican vs. Liberal, wealthy vs. poor, city vs. rural or plain old good vs. bad conundrum. WE'RE ALL TO BLAME and all of the talk that politicians and economists and even environmentalists put forth aren't going to change this paradigm. "America", as an entity unto itself,(and the industrialized world as it is) isn't going to suddenly get 'back on track' economically or ecologically because the recession we're experiencing is more than financial. It's not a recession of productivity, but of OVER productivity. As long as we continue to perceive the human economy as the ONLY economy- and not take into consideration the planets economy- then we will continue on a path that not only extinguishes US, but damn near everything else in the process.

I'd like to propose the concept that, for those of you that give a fuck- and even those of you making a buck from our current ECOCIDE- that we stop seeking to live "off the grid" but rather seek ways to dismantle the beast altogether. Granted, I'm using the internet to convey this message and to be honest I don't know what industrialized/technological western society would be like without the ability to virtually communicate with damn near anyone at any time regardless of geographical location...but to the best of our ability it seems that providing for our immediate land bases and communities is a healthy direction.

-K




posted by:
saffy
Montana
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  • Re: Ecocide in America

    Fri, June 18, 2010 - 8:53 AM
    I agree with you completely, but my principles and idealism have taken a beating, the past ten years or so. Something needs to be done. Anyone have ideas?

    I have a patio garden, but I can't grow enough food to feed my family. Even growing up on a 5-acre farm, we couldn't do it. My boyfriend and I have to have vehicles to get to work and school...I'd love to have an electric car, but on a grad student's salary? C'mon, I can barely afford the Nissan I drive. At least it's fuel-efficient.

    There were times when I could barely afford to feed my kids...and when Walmart has it cheaper, I'm not going to go *another* big-box chain to spend more for the exact same product. This is the trap we're put in: there *are* no options.

    Someone made an interesting point the other day in a conversation I was party to...talking about Marxist revolution, and about the fact that while it was a nice idea that the proletariat could revolt and take back the modes of production--it isn't reasonable nowadays. The point of Marxist revolution is to dismantle the government and leave power in the hands of the people, but these days, if you dismantle the government, it wouldn't leave the people in charge...it would leave the multinational corporations in charge.

    The system is totally broken. Fixing it is going to take a mass society-wide truth campaign, until enough people realize and can actually put enough pressure on the government to step in and regulate the shit that corporations do every day.
  • Re: Ecocide in America

    Fri, June 18, 2010 - 11:54 AM
    One of the big issues that covers both aspects is the nature of money. It literally doesn't exist. Money doesn't Exist. It is pieces of paper we believe have value. This allows for the transportation of apparent wealth. There is no limit to this wealth either because it is not based on any usable goods. it used to be this money was paper. It lacks even that value now. It is only 1s and 0s. This allows people to buy and sell things like oil, batteries, ipods ect without actually having to trade a material thing for that material thing. At this point we can only consume, The system is rigged for it.

    it is not the government or the consumer necessarily that is to blame. There is no other game or option really. If you wish to live you have to live that way. A favor doesn't buy you food for example, and you can't exactly trade a chicken for medical attention.

    Possible options to limit consumption: Trade for things through barter that you produce. Not that you obtain but actually produce.

    Destroy the Imaginary financial ponzi scheme we have

    Illegalize and nationalize all corporations, seize and liquidate all assets.

    Restructure the economy based on sustainability not growth.

    Dismantle the United States and divide it into countries that rationally reflect the will of the people. This limits the amount we can fuck things up.

    These are just a few Ideas i have.

    JSin
    • Re: Ecocide in America

      Sat, June 19, 2010 - 11:47 AM
      "Illegalize and nationalize all corporations, seize and liquidate all assets."

      So by illegalizing and nationalizing all corporations, you would have the government in control of EVERYTHING?
      • Re: Ecocide in America

        Sat, June 19, 2010 - 12:30 PM
        Figured you would zero in on just one aspect Lester. And I am sure all those corporate friends of yours that have gotten us into this mess are grateful for it.

        Go collect your unemployment and keep bitching about how bad government is.

        JSin
        • Re: Ecocide in America

          Sat, June 19, 2010 - 12:44 PM
          So then, you decline to answer the question?
          • Re: Ecocide in America

            Sat, June 19, 2010 - 1:28 PM
            Why bother with ya Lester, You are again incapable of rational argument, and cannot read. If you could you would have seen that the US would be dissolved and formed around more logical regions.

            But the more direct answer would be yes, but not under the corporate fascist government we have now rather around the Scandinavian Socialist model that has spawned a sustainable economy. But you didn't read the part about economic restructuring.

            But enough for now Have to go to work... yes Lester some of us actually do more than suck off the government tit.

            JSin
            • Re: Ecocide in America

              Sat, June 19, 2010 - 2:09 PM
              So your government that you want to have own and operate EVERYTHING would be a series of smaller ones, along the lines of the financially failing Scandinavian Socialist governments. Good idea. Or have you not noticed that the Socialists in Europe are failing? When will you begin to learn from the mistakes of others? Socialism doesn't work.

              You go off to work now, to support all the people who actually DO suck off the government teats. I am making use of an insurance policy that I was forced to purchase, I paid for it. Look it up, it's called unemployment insurance. And don't think I'm not working. I'm working on projects that will make me a living in the future. Since they don't provide an income now, they aren't considered employment.
    • Re: Ecocide in America

      Sat, June 19, 2010 - 1:24 PM
      i don't necessarily want to take a global, technological, and financial step backwards, either. maybe i'm not a good socialist any more.

      <<Illegalize and nationalize all corporations, seize and liquidate all assets.>>

      you'd have to destroy the entire world order to do this. i think if the G8 actually quit kissing the corporations' asses and made them clean up their messes, it would be a good start.

      <<Restructure the economy based on sustainability not growth.>>

      Absofrickinlutely.

      <<Dismantle the United States and divide it into countries that rationally reflect the will of the people. This limits the amount we can fuck things up>>

      Heh...maybe not so much. I live in the state of Ohio right now. I don't think I'd like to live in the Country of Ohio, and the Country of Texas might well be a total disaster ;o) This is why I'm not a Libertarian. I think the states' rights thing only goes so far. There's a reason it took so long to abolish slavery, for instance. Some people aren't going to cooperate with any agenda if it disagrees with their dearly held ideals. There is some benefit to having an effective government with a long reach. And small states can fuck up just as well as large ones.

      Right now, we've got a growing young population, and the elected officials are all from the last generation. When they start dying off, it's possible that things will begin to change. I think there's momentum in this country and worldwide, but it would be nice not to extinct our species before our society and government catches up.
      • Re: Ecocide in America

        Sat, June 19, 2010 - 2:30 PM
        Little Bit, Libertarians don't want to tear the Federal Government apart, they just want it to act as it is required to in the contract that was signed when each of the states entered into this Union. State's rights are written into that contract, very clearly, and are being trampled daily by the Federal government. If you signed a contract, I'm sure you wouldn't want the other party to that contract to just do as it will, ignoring the contract you signed. Just as you wouldn't go off doing whatever you wanted, regardless of what you signed.

        And I agree with you that corporations, just as individuals, should be responsible for damages they cause. But think about what happens when the government causes damage. Do they take responsibility for it? Can you sue them to force them to take responsibility for damages? No, you can't sue the federal government, not without their permission. And they don't give it often. So would the world be a better place if they owned everything?
        • Re: Ecocide in America

          Sat, June 19, 2010 - 3:27 PM
          The Republic failed in Rome, too.

          We need a different system. The "contract" has allowed corporatization, globalization, and the free market to completely rearrange the economy as we know it, and life as we know it. What worked in 1776 is not working now. That is why the "contract" has been amended. And it's far out of touch with what exists now.

          I don't believe in bigger government. I believe in *a* government, and in different governance.
          • Re: Ecocide in America

            Sat, June 19, 2010 - 10:34 PM
            So, how is 'socialism' in Europe failing more than 'capitalism' here? Capitalism only works FOR capitalists, it works OFF the rest of us. I'm not advocating one or the other, I just hate blanket statements about a concept that has many forms. It's intellectual dishonesty used to bolster a single-minded political affiliation. It's not even clever enough to be sophistry.
            • Re: Ecocide in America

              Sun, June 20, 2010 - 5:07 AM
              I didn't make a blanket statement in favor of socialism. In fact, I can poke holes in modern liberalism just as well, but I was questioning Lester. I don't honestly think there are any good answers. I think there will always be different political affiliations and people will always fight to pull the center towards their corner of the fringe. Historically, that's what human political systems do.

              I'm not in favor of capitalism because it's not sustainable. I don't think a pure enough socialist state exists to compare success rates. When I vote, I vote for the party I think will help the most people and offer the greatest quality of life for the greatest amount of people. In today's culture, that makes me look like a rabid, gibbering leftist.

              I'm okay with that.
              • Re: Ecocide in America

                Sun, June 20, 2010 - 8:47 AM
                Well, Little Bit, I think we differ on what a government would do to help the most people. I agree with you that it should, but in my opinion, the best thing a government can do to help it's people is to get out of the way so that they can do for themselves. When people say things like capitalism only helps the capitalist, on the backs of the rest of us, what do they think socialism does? When you say that pure socialism hasn't been tried, I say that pure capitalism hasn't either. How about we leave at least one country on the planet that allows freedom, and rewards people who strive to excel, and anybody that would prefer to be taken care of from cradle to grave can go to one of the many socialist countries where that is the system. At least for now, until they fail. Even Margaret Thatcher said, "The problem with socialism is that eventually, you run out of other people's money." Maybe not an exact quote, but you get the idea.
                • Re: Ecocide in America

                  Sun, June 20, 2010 - 12:56 PM
                  Hey Lester. There is this thing called history. look to the good old USA pre 1900 in the midst of the numerous catastrophic economic boom s and crashes, before labor unions, food safety, drug safety. Oh the days of mass poisonings ecological wreckage like hydo mining, monopolies, 12 hour wook days for the labor at about a 1.00 a day if you are lucky. It has been done it failed.

                  The most stable economic period in US history was post world war 2. Heavy taxes on the rich and corporate America. Huge controls on multinationals, huge controls on labor law and labor relations. Strong Unions, heavy tariffs.

                  You will argue around in circles on this and pick out some detail without looking at the big picture.

                  Reality is you are simply a tool in the plans of the Uber rich what amazes me is a poor as you are you actually think it would be benficial to place yourself under your corporate masters.

                  JSin
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Ecocide in America

                    Sun, June 20, 2010 - 2:41 PM
                    One of the main reasons it worked post WW2 is because women left the workforce to make sure there were enough jobs for the men, and there was still a manufacturing base in this country.

                    The thing about socialism, Lester (and quoting Thatcher is no recommendation) is it's not "other people's money." It's communal money for the communal good, and we all have a say in it...or should. Right now, only the corporations and the super-rich who made their money working for corporations can make their money talk loud enough to affect how that money is actually spent. The little guy is too caught up in making it day-to-day and arguing about political ideals that aren't reality. And do we really trust the corporations to do what's right wit their money when all they think about is competitive market value and the bottom line?

                    *cough BP cough cough*
                    • Re: Ecocide in America

                      Sun, June 20, 2010 - 10:32 PM
                      LIttle Bit, I would trust corporations at least as much as I trust politicians. I'm not big fan of Thatcher's either, but what I'm saying is that even the leader of a country leaning heavily socialist understands that it's always running on borrowed time. Socialism doesn't work, because it takes away the incentive to excel, the driving reason behind innovation, and progress. In small groups, it can work. Where the group is small enough that everyone actually has a say. But in large groups, like a country, there will still always be a ruling elite, and the misery is just more equitably spread amongst everyone else. In other words, it's a nice thought, but it's unnatural, it goes against human nature.

                      JSin, I also have studied history enough to understand where the booms and crashes came from. Have you?
                      • Re: Ecocide in America

                        Sun, June 20, 2010 - 10:47 PM
                        Unstable and unregulated currency, credit and trading. Kinda like the unregulated business schemes launched and implemented under the Bush regime as they deregulated credit and insurance.

                        JSin
                      • Re: Ecocide in America

                        Mon, June 21, 2010 - 12:22 AM
                        Lester, making a case for certain economic strategies in one thing, but to call it human nature is a stretch. Societal structure depends on size of the group, among other things. Nothing is endemic but searching for a solution that will ensure survival, and there are myriad solutions for myriad conditions.

                        I reject the notion that capitalism is th driving force for innovation. I posit, that innovation has many push/pull factors that are also related to conditions and many variables. The invention of the needle was not a capitalistic venture, nor was the paintbrush.

                        I think being affiliated with a political party is a brain-killer. It seems that people break things down into these easy to digest categories of what does and doesn't work in a subconscious attempt to simplify the world. This is supposed to reduce the stress of the individual but leads to more stress as conflicts over ideologies and a limited view of reality and the multi-faceted nature of existence.

                        Interesting play on words, though. Misery is more equitably distributed... as if misery and money are synonymous. Some say wealth is more equitably distributed, they don't say 'happiness'. Sad, that so much of what we think is valuable living is based on dollar value. So much of what we think a person's worth and rights are is based on their net worth. Until we can disconnect from these things, all of this this vs. that crap is for nothing. Hanging on to an ideology so tightly, and not being able to consider another is not the path to wisdom, but division and conflict.
              • Re: Ecocide in America

                Mon, June 21, 2010 - 12:09 AM
                Sorry, Little Bit, I was responding to Lester. I took no issue with your statements.
                • Re: Ecocide in America

                  Mon, June 21, 2010 - 3:07 AM
                  *whew* thanks for clarifying, Quel. i might aspire to sophistry, but ideology gives me hives ;o)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Ecocide in America

                    Mon, June 21, 2010 - 9:57 AM
                    I equate misery with standing a line waiting for the puny little allotment of bread that the government will allow you to have, since there's not that much left over after the ruling elite have had theirs. We live in the land of plenty because of capitalism, not the attempts to take our system in the socialist direction. Sorry if loving freedom equates with sophistry and ideology.

                    JSin, who would you believe caused the money to be unstable? Would big government have had anything to do with it? Just a little? Maybe?
                    • Re: Ecocide in America

                      Mon, June 21, 2010 - 1:05 PM
                      Oh please, Lester. Boo hoo, people don't agree with you. Try substantive arguments for once. Jsin may get his kicks sparring with you, but I don't think you have enough of a serious point to be argued. Besides, you never really answer the questions, you evade and appeal to base emotions. I learned from the best, evasion is transparent to me. Its clear that you need to believe what you do, and I respect that. I just wish you actually knew how to make your point, then I might be interested in it.

                      I do find it sad, that you don't even notice the hypocrisy of your last statement. Why is is black or white? Why can't we take the best aspects of different systems and integrate them? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater? Looking at any system as an ideological purity leads us into an inbred system. I'm pretty sure the French aren't feeling less free and they're certainly not living off a puny alottment of bread. Drama, much? Let's work with reality to make our points sometime.
                    • Re: Ecocide in America

                      Mon, June 21, 2010 - 2:04 PM
                      I have told you before Lester, take a reading course, you are having trouble comprehending. Late 1890's to early 1900's actually back earlier like 1870's. Little government, little regulation, snake oil salesmen, monopolies, banks printing their own money. Where is this big government. You clearly are not understanding the big words.

                      As to the scrap of bread. Hmmm... seems Sweden is one of the most equitable, richest, most stable and has the happiest people. Explain that one. You know those damn socialists. Going and taking care of their people.

                      Let's see if you understand basic political concepts. what is "The Dilemma of Government". Understand this is a basic concept in political theory. Generally taught in High school civics class but at bare minimum college civics or intro to American Government. Perhaps in here you will find some of the answers to your confusion.

                      JSin
                      • Re: Ecocide in America

                        Mon, June 21, 2010 - 7:21 PM
                        Besides Sweden, where my Swedish friend tells me, its an amazing life with weather being the downside, Norway gets rave reviews in lifestyle from the natives. I met a cop that was travelling the world... yes, a cop from Norway could afford to travel the world. He couldn't stop raving about how nice life was.So, the tax rate is incredibly high... so is the general standard of living. Taxes and government control of industry only becomes an issue if there are abuses.

                        There is a small country called Bhutan. The monarch recently decided to switch governmental systems to a democracy. The citizens were upset. They were so happy with his rule and those of his predecessors, that they didn't see why this was at all necessary. A system is only as good as those running it. Those abuses Jsin mentioned during the Gilded Age no longer exist because of the radical ideas of the unfairly vilified communist, Karl Marx. If you go beyond the Communist Manifesto (which was a pamphlet he was commissioned to make, not a cross-section of real Marxist philosophy), we can thank Marx for bringing to light the necessity of treating workers like humans, not chattel. We can thank him that we no longer think about serfdom as a potential reality. What people scream as socialist is actually just the same rights we have lost in the economic pinch: the right to opportunity, which is dwindling before our eyes. If we just stuck with pure capitalism, we'd have a whole new generation of Rockefellers and Carnegies who bring with them a legacy of massive exploitation. Capitalism without Socialistic aspects would lead us further into a world where the survival of a corporation is more important then the welfare of the people.
                        • Re: Ecocide in America

                          Mon, June 21, 2010 - 10:05 PM
                          Yeah Quel, That is the whole part of History that Lester finds so difficult to understand. The good Union Member he is on Unemployment.


                          Can't even comprehend that he enjoys benefits when he works and when he doesn't because of those damn socialists getting in the way of his corporate masters.

                          JSin
                          • Re: Ecocide in America

                            Tue, June 22, 2010 - 11:10 AM
                            "Why can't we take the best aspects of different systems and integrate them? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?"

                            Yes, why can't we talk about that, instead of just rag on Lester? You say, "boo hoo, people don't agree with me." No, most people here on Tribe don't agree with me. And I try to discuss things with them, but the standard liberal way of discussing is personal attacks.

                            So, the quote above, why is it that socialist and communists can't do that? They want the whole world to be their way, capitalism is evil, blah, blah, blah. You HAVE a mixture right now, here in this country. Why do you insist that the capitalist part continue to be watered down more each day?

                            And JSin, who was it that, in your oh so educated opinion, made the dollar so unstable in the old days, and is making it so useless these days? Was it the corporations that took us off the gold standard? Is it the corporations that continue printing money so fast we can't keep up with inflation? Or would that have been the government that destabilizes monetary systems?

                            I have no confusion, nor any trouble understanding history. I wasn't taught by the leftists that rule the education system in this country today.
                            • Re: Ecocide in America

                              Tue, June 22, 2010 - 12:34 PM
                              Again, you evade, Lester. Maybe you should read the other portions of my posts and not just the parts you can use to garner sympathy. Then, try addressing the questions with comprehensive answers. I'm honestly trying to give you critical feedback unless you just want to spar, which i suspect. If you decide to actually have a comprehensive discussion, I'll be back and glad to do so.
                            • Re: Ecocide in America

                              Tue, June 22, 2010 - 12:57 PM
                              <<I wasn't taught by the leftists that rule the education system in this country today.>>

                              hmm. neither was i. i got the hell out of the right-wing indoctrination i was brought up with (no, i didn't attend public school) and tried discovering what worked.

                              Lester, you said above that socialism stifles ingenuity and progress and goes against human nature. can you cite sources please?
                              • Re: Ecocide in America

                                Tue, June 22, 2010 - 4:12 PM
                                The reality is Lester cannot cite sources.. He can't even understand the question let alone give a direct answer. Watch once again he will evade, claim we are picking on him and capitalism.

                                There are article out there (I think the Daily KOS) that argue capitalism stifles innovation and creativity. The rational being buisness will not look into anything which cannot turn a profit. They cite technological triumphs such as the moon landing (government program not capitalistic), The interstate system, curing polio, the internet, the computer, ect... the list is massive.

                                What has capitalism gotten us, the sham wow, slap chop, the garden weasel, the gulf oil spill, global warming, ect.

                                Seems that collectivism has in fact made far larger gains in innovation that capitalism. There is a reason R and D is expensive with little hope of recovering the expense. Hell even most of those overprices miracle drugs that private companies market to use are subsidized by the government.

                                BTW Lester you still have not answered how the money during the gilded age was so unstable with boom and crash cycles. This by the way was under the gold standard. (Gold standard was not suspended until 1901).

                                Ya know how you believe it is lack of government interaction that will save us??? BWAHHAAAAA
                                from wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age
                                >>"The end of the Gilded Age coincided with the Panic of 1893, a deep depression. The depression lasted until 1897 and marked a major political realignment in the election of 1896. After that came the Progressive Era."<

                                Yes that is right just like in 1929 after the conservatives reduced govt controls the markets all crashed due to the greed of capitalism, and just like the markets now, which collapsed after the reduction of regulations. The left wing has to come in and restablize the markets and place regulations on business.

                                So to answer your question Little Bit. Lester cannot cite, he does not read, he does not understand and he cannot effectively argue any point without contradicting himself.

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