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many call me a socialist. This likely does not go far enough concerning how left wing I am.
Came across this article on Communist Anarchism and it made a great deal of sense. Yes I understand that a nation like the US could not survive this but fuck it, I don't believe this nation should survive.
"Chapter 1: What Do You Want Out Of Life?
What is it that every one wants most in life? What do you want most?
After all, we are all the same under our skins. Whoever you be - man or woman, rich or poor, aristocrat or tramp, white, yellow, red or black, of whatever land, nationality, or religion - we are all alike in feeling cold and hunger, love and hate; we all fear disaster and disease, and try to keep away from harm and death.
What you most want out of life, what you fear most, that also is true, in the main, of your neighbor.
Learned men have written big books, many of them, on sociology, psychology, and many other 'ologies', to tell you what you want, but no two of those books ever agree. And yet I think that you know very well without them what you want.
They have studied and written and speculated so much about this, for them so difficult a question, that you, the individual, have become entirely lost in their philosophies. And they have at last come to the conclusion that you, my friend, don't count at all. What's important, they say, is not you, but 'the whole', all the people together. This 'whole' they call 'society', 'the commonwealth', or 'the State', and the wiseacres have actually decided that it makes no difference if you, the individual, are miserable so long as 'society' is all right. Somehow they forget to explain how 'society' or 'the whole' can be all right if the single members of it are wretched.
So they go on spinning their philosophic webs and producing thick volumes to find out where you really enter in the scheme of things called life, and what you really want.
But you yourself know very well what you want, and so does your neighbor.
You want to be well and healthy; you want to be free, to serve no master, to crawl and humiliate yourself before no man; you want to have well-being for yourself, your family, and those near and dear to you. And not to be harassed and worried by the fear of to-morrow.
You may feel sure that every one else wants the same. So the whole matter seems to stand this way:
You want health, liberty, and well-being. Every one is like yourself in this respect.
Therefore we all seek the same thing in life.
Then why should we not all seek it together, by joint effort, helping each other in it?
Why should we cheat and rob, kill and murder each other, if we all seek the same thing? Aren't you entitled to the things you want as well as the next man?
Or is it that we can secure our health, liberty, and well-being better by fighting and slaughtering each other?
Or because there is no other way?
Let us look into this.
Does it not stand to reason that if we all want the same thing in life, if we have the same aim, then our interests must also be the same? In that case we should live like brothers, in peace and friendship; we should be good to each other, and help each other all we can.
But you know that it is not at all that way in life. You know that we do not live like brothers. You know that the world is full of strife and war, of misery, injustice, and wrong, of crime, poverty, and oppression.
Why is it that way then?
It is because, though we all have the same aim in life, our interests are different. It is this that makes all the trouble in the world.
Just think it over yourself.
Suppose you want to get a pair of shoes or a hat. You go into the store and you try to buy what you need as reasonably and cheaply as you can. That is your interest. But the store-keeper's interest is to sell it to you as dearly as he can, because then his profit will be greater. That is because everything in the life we live is built on making a profit, one way or another. We live in a system of profit-making.
Now, it is plain that if we have to make profits out of each other, then our interests cannot be the same. They must be different and often even opposed to each other.
In every country you will find people who live by making a profit out of others. Those who make the biggest profits are rich. Those who cannot make profits are poor. The only people who cannot make any profits are the workers. You can therefore understand that the interests of the workers cannot be the same as the interests of the other people. That is why you will find in every country several classes of people with entirely different interests.
Everywhere you will find:
(1) a comparatively small class of persons who make big profits and who are very rich, such as bankers, great manufacturers and land owners - people who have much capital and who are therefore called capitalists. These belong to the capitalist class;
(2) a class of more or less well-to-do people, consisting of business men and their agents, real estate men, speculators, and professional men, such as doctors, lawyers, inventors, and so on. This is the middle class or the bourgeoisie.
(3) great numbers of workingmen employed in various industries- in mills and mines, in factories and shops, in transport and on the land. This is the working class, also called the proletariat.
The bourgeoisie and the capitalists really belong to the same capitalistic class, because they have about the same interests, and therefore the people of the bourgeoisie also generally side with the capitalist class as against the working class.
You will find that the working class is always the poorest class, in every country. Maybe you yourself belong to the workers, to the proletariat. Then you know that your wages will never make you rich.
Why are the workers the poorest class? Surely they labor more than the other classes, and harder. Is it because the workers are not very important in the life of society? Perhaps we can even do without them?
Let us see. What do we need to live? We need food, clothing, and shelter; schools for our children; street cars and trains for travel, and a thousand and one other things.
Can you look about you and point out a single thing that was made without labor? Why, the shoes you stand in, and the streets you walk on, are the result of labor. Without labor there would be nothing but the bare earth, and human life would be entirely impossible.
So it means that labor has created everything we have - all the wealth of the world. It is all the product of labor applied to the earth and its natural resources.
But if all the wealth is the product of labor, then why does it not belong to labor? That is, to those who have worked with their hands or with their heads to create it - the manual worker and the brain worker.
Everybody agrees that a person has a right to own the thing that he himself has made.
But no one person has made or can make anything all by himself. It takes many men, of different trades and professions, to create something. The carpenter, for instance, cannot make a simple chair or bench all by himself; not even if he should cut down a tree and prepare the lumber himself. He needs a saw and a hammer, nails and tools, which he cannot make himself. And even if he should make these himself, he would first have to have the raw materials - steel and iron - which other men would have to supply.
Or take another example - let us say a civil engineer. He could do nothing without paper and pencil and measuring tools, and these things other people have to make for him. Not to mention that first he has to learn his profession and spend many years in study, while others enable him to live in the meantime. This applies to every human being in the world to- day.
You can see then that no person can by his own efforts alone make the things he needs to exist. In early times the primitive man who lived in a cave could hammer a hatchet out of stone or make himself a bow and arrow, and live by that. But those days are gone. To-day no man can live by his own work: he must be helped by the labor of others. Therefore all that we have, all wealth, is the product of the labor of many people, even of many generations. That is to say: all labor and the products of labor are social, made by society as a whole.
But if all the wealth we have is social, then it stands to reason that it should belong to society, to the people as a whole. How does it happen, then, that the wealth of the world is owned by some individuals and not by the people? Why does it not belong to those who have toiled to create it - the masses who work with hand or brain, the working class as a whole?
You know very well that it is the capitalistic class which owns the greatest part of the world's wealth. Must we therefore not conclude that the working people have lost the wealth they created, or that somehow it was taken away from them?
They did not lose it, for they never owned it. Then it must be that it was taken away from them.
This is beginning to look serious. Because if you say that the wealth they created has been taken away from the people who created it, then it means that it has been stolen from them, that they have been robbed, for surely no one has ever willingly consented to have his wealth taken away from him.
It is a terrible charge, but it is true. The wealth the workers have created, as a class, has indeed been stolen from them. And they are being robbed in the same way every day of their lives, even at this very moment. That is why one of the greatest thinkers, the French philosopher Proudhon, said that the possessions of the rich are stolen property.
You can readily understand how important it is that every honest man should know about this. And you may be sure that if the workers knew about it, they would not stand for it.
Let us see then how they are robbed and by whom."
Source:
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Now_.../Chapter_1
JSin
Came across this article on Communist Anarchism and it made a great deal of sense. Yes I understand that a nation like the US could not survive this but fuck it, I don't believe this nation should survive.
"Chapter 1: What Do You Want Out Of Life?
What is it that every one wants most in life? What do you want most?
After all, we are all the same under our skins. Whoever you be - man or woman, rich or poor, aristocrat or tramp, white, yellow, red or black, of whatever land, nationality, or religion - we are all alike in feeling cold and hunger, love and hate; we all fear disaster and disease, and try to keep away from harm and death.
What you most want out of life, what you fear most, that also is true, in the main, of your neighbor.
Learned men have written big books, many of them, on sociology, psychology, and many other 'ologies', to tell you what you want, but no two of those books ever agree. And yet I think that you know very well without them what you want.
They have studied and written and speculated so much about this, for them so difficult a question, that you, the individual, have become entirely lost in their philosophies. And they have at last come to the conclusion that you, my friend, don't count at all. What's important, they say, is not you, but 'the whole', all the people together. This 'whole' they call 'society', 'the commonwealth', or 'the State', and the wiseacres have actually decided that it makes no difference if you, the individual, are miserable so long as 'society' is all right. Somehow they forget to explain how 'society' or 'the whole' can be all right if the single members of it are wretched.
So they go on spinning their philosophic webs and producing thick volumes to find out where you really enter in the scheme of things called life, and what you really want.
But you yourself know very well what you want, and so does your neighbor.
You want to be well and healthy; you want to be free, to serve no master, to crawl and humiliate yourself before no man; you want to have well-being for yourself, your family, and those near and dear to you. And not to be harassed and worried by the fear of to-morrow.
You may feel sure that every one else wants the same. So the whole matter seems to stand this way:
You want health, liberty, and well-being. Every one is like yourself in this respect.
Therefore we all seek the same thing in life.
Then why should we not all seek it together, by joint effort, helping each other in it?
Why should we cheat and rob, kill and murder each other, if we all seek the same thing? Aren't you entitled to the things you want as well as the next man?
Or is it that we can secure our health, liberty, and well-being better by fighting and slaughtering each other?
Or because there is no other way?
Let us look into this.
Does it not stand to reason that if we all want the same thing in life, if we have the same aim, then our interests must also be the same? In that case we should live like brothers, in peace and friendship; we should be good to each other, and help each other all we can.
But you know that it is not at all that way in life. You know that we do not live like brothers. You know that the world is full of strife and war, of misery, injustice, and wrong, of crime, poverty, and oppression.
Why is it that way then?
It is because, though we all have the same aim in life, our interests are different. It is this that makes all the trouble in the world.
Just think it over yourself.
Suppose you want to get a pair of shoes or a hat. You go into the store and you try to buy what you need as reasonably and cheaply as you can. That is your interest. But the store-keeper's interest is to sell it to you as dearly as he can, because then his profit will be greater. That is because everything in the life we live is built on making a profit, one way or another. We live in a system of profit-making.
Now, it is plain that if we have to make profits out of each other, then our interests cannot be the same. They must be different and often even opposed to each other.
In every country you will find people who live by making a profit out of others. Those who make the biggest profits are rich. Those who cannot make profits are poor. The only people who cannot make any profits are the workers. You can therefore understand that the interests of the workers cannot be the same as the interests of the other people. That is why you will find in every country several classes of people with entirely different interests.
Everywhere you will find:
(1) a comparatively small class of persons who make big profits and who are very rich, such as bankers, great manufacturers and land owners - people who have much capital and who are therefore called capitalists. These belong to the capitalist class;
(2) a class of more or less well-to-do people, consisting of business men and their agents, real estate men, speculators, and professional men, such as doctors, lawyers, inventors, and so on. This is the middle class or the bourgeoisie.
(3) great numbers of workingmen employed in various industries- in mills and mines, in factories and shops, in transport and on the land. This is the working class, also called the proletariat.
The bourgeoisie and the capitalists really belong to the same capitalistic class, because they have about the same interests, and therefore the people of the bourgeoisie also generally side with the capitalist class as against the working class.
You will find that the working class is always the poorest class, in every country. Maybe you yourself belong to the workers, to the proletariat. Then you know that your wages will never make you rich.
Why are the workers the poorest class? Surely they labor more than the other classes, and harder. Is it because the workers are not very important in the life of society? Perhaps we can even do without them?
Let us see. What do we need to live? We need food, clothing, and shelter; schools for our children; street cars and trains for travel, and a thousand and one other things.
Can you look about you and point out a single thing that was made without labor? Why, the shoes you stand in, and the streets you walk on, are the result of labor. Without labor there would be nothing but the bare earth, and human life would be entirely impossible.
So it means that labor has created everything we have - all the wealth of the world. It is all the product of labor applied to the earth and its natural resources.
But if all the wealth is the product of labor, then why does it not belong to labor? That is, to those who have worked with their hands or with their heads to create it - the manual worker and the brain worker.
Everybody agrees that a person has a right to own the thing that he himself has made.
But no one person has made or can make anything all by himself. It takes many men, of different trades and professions, to create something. The carpenter, for instance, cannot make a simple chair or bench all by himself; not even if he should cut down a tree and prepare the lumber himself. He needs a saw and a hammer, nails and tools, which he cannot make himself. And even if he should make these himself, he would first have to have the raw materials - steel and iron - which other men would have to supply.
Or take another example - let us say a civil engineer. He could do nothing without paper and pencil and measuring tools, and these things other people have to make for him. Not to mention that first he has to learn his profession and spend many years in study, while others enable him to live in the meantime. This applies to every human being in the world to- day.
You can see then that no person can by his own efforts alone make the things he needs to exist. In early times the primitive man who lived in a cave could hammer a hatchet out of stone or make himself a bow and arrow, and live by that. But those days are gone. To-day no man can live by his own work: he must be helped by the labor of others. Therefore all that we have, all wealth, is the product of the labor of many people, even of many generations. That is to say: all labor and the products of labor are social, made by society as a whole.
But if all the wealth we have is social, then it stands to reason that it should belong to society, to the people as a whole. How does it happen, then, that the wealth of the world is owned by some individuals and not by the people? Why does it not belong to those who have toiled to create it - the masses who work with hand or brain, the working class as a whole?
You know very well that it is the capitalistic class which owns the greatest part of the world's wealth. Must we therefore not conclude that the working people have lost the wealth they created, or that somehow it was taken away from them?
They did not lose it, for they never owned it. Then it must be that it was taken away from them.
This is beginning to look serious. Because if you say that the wealth they created has been taken away from the people who created it, then it means that it has been stolen from them, that they have been robbed, for surely no one has ever willingly consented to have his wealth taken away from him.
It is a terrible charge, but it is true. The wealth the workers have created, as a class, has indeed been stolen from them. And they are being robbed in the same way every day of their lives, even at this very moment. That is why one of the greatest thinkers, the French philosopher Proudhon, said that the possessions of the rich are stolen property.
You can readily understand how important it is that every honest man should know about this. And you may be sure that if the workers knew about it, they would not stand for it.
Let us see then how they are robbed and by whom."
Source:
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Now_.../Chapter_1
JSin
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Re: To explain what believe
Fri, July 2, 2010 - 12:15 AMAt least you admit your hatred for this country. That's more than most freedom haters will do. As for the article, it's just more nonsense, the ignorant leading the stupid. Fitting. -
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Re: To explain what believe
Sun, July 4, 2010 - 9:28 AMI see you have not taken that reading class lester, nor it seems have you evolved any basic argument skills.
Keep sucking off that government tit there lester. While you are at it you may want to apply for one of those socialist adult education classes.
I am still trying to understand how the statement:
>"Yes I understand that a nation like the US could not survive this but fuck it, I don't believe this nation should survive. "<
Correlates to a hatred for this country. It is more indicative of a believe that the US has gotten far too large and unwieldy to serve the needs of the people, and has become to selfish, greedy and destructive to be a benefit to this planet. Hatred is such a strong word and your interpretation of it is indicative that you didn't read the article.
Then again what else should I expect from an uneducated unread teabagger.
Keep pulling that unemployment while sitting on your ass watching fox news there lester.
JSin -
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Re: To explain what believe
Sun, July 4, 2010 - 10:41 AMWhen you have some arguments of substance, JSin, I will argue with you. But you make no sense, so I see no point in it.
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Re: To explain what believe
Fri, July 2, 2010 - 4:28 AMI tend to identify with Marxism, too. Makes more sense than some options.
people.tribe.net/through-t...8615714080
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Re: To explain what believe
Sat, July 10, 2010 - 12:35 AMLet's stop fighting and all go get cocktails!
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Re: To explain what believe
Tue, July 13, 2010 - 6:15 PMI'm an unabashed marxist. I don't know the origins of this but I find it quite beautiful.
"Our professor in Philosophy stood in our class today & had some items in front of him. When our class began, wordlessly, he picked up a very large & empty mayonnaise jar & proceeded to fill it with golf balls. He then asked us, his students. If the jar was full, we all agreed that it was. Our professor then picked a box of pebbles & poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly, the pebbles rolled into the open areas between the golf balls. He then asked us again, if the jar was full, we agreed that it was. Our professor next picked up a box of sand & poured it into the jar, & of course the sand filled up everything else. He asked us again once more if the jar was full. We all responded with a unanimous "Yes!" Our professor then produced 2 cups of coffee from under the table & poured the entire contents into the jar, effectively filling the empty space between the sand. We, his students all laughed! "Now!" said our professor, as our laughter subsided, "I want you to recognize that the jar represents your life! The golf balls are important things. God, family, children, health, friends & passion. Things that if everything else was lost & only they remained your life would still be full! The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, house & car. The sand is everything else the small stuff. "If you put the sand into the jar 1st" he continued, "there is no room for the pebbles or the golf balls, the same goes for life, if you spend all your time & energy on the small stuff you will never have room for the things that important to you.
So.... pay attentions to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children, take time to get medical check ups, take your partner out to dinner. There will always be time to clean the house & fix the disposal. "Take care of the golf balls 1st, the things that really matter. Set your priorities, the rest is just sand."
I raised my hand & I inquired, "what does the coffee represent?" Our professor smiled "Im glad you asked" he said to me, "it just goes to show you that no matter how full your life may seem, theres always room for a couple of cups of coffee with a friend."
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Re: To explain what believe
Sat, August 14, 2010 - 7:31 AMI think the metafor makes more since if the golf balls are just golf games.
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Dude...
Mon, August 23, 2010 - 12:42 AM
Truth:
There are properties or rules of money for which you obviously have not learned. Self discipline is one of the greatest and most of my broke socialist and mostly left of center friends are completely ignorant of this fact. When they want to buy a house they want to spend money they don't have. Entitlement. is a incredibly common character flaw in the US. Where is the money to come from then? You guessed it, a money lender. This money lender has learned that money, no matter how little, has the power to earn profit. Money should not be given to the ignorant. Just look at Lotto winners. It's not all about the stolen money from poor folks, it's about IGNORANCE of the power of money. The rich know its principles, the poor just make self-serving excuses. Me included until I realized I was being ignorant.
Truth:
Capitalism worked until it was undermined by big government greed. For example by introducing a HUGELY imbalanced trade agreement with countries like China. (Google our current amount of indebtedness to this socialist country). YOU feed this greed by buying non US mfg'd products FOR AS CHEAP AS YOU CAN taking nothing in to consideration about the US families who will now starve. Guess who we own the most to??? No one forced you to buy Chinese mfg'd products. No one stole anything from you. You are simply ignorant. But that can be fixed with a little education.
Dont' get me wrong, IMHO socialization should be a good solution for health care and the sick and elderly. But to say Marxism, Socialism, or Communism is the answer to what? Equality and real freedom? JSin, pick up a freakin history book man. Then follow that up with a good read about the volumes of people who died trying to get the fuck out of their socialist countries too have the U.S.'s version of freedom. I've traveled to several of these hell holes. I'm grateful to be right where I am.
I vote and do not support imbalanced trade with any country.
Only the ignorant are victims. Educate yourself man. I suggest you immediately read one small book called, "The Richest Man in Babylon". Then re-read it. It teaches the principles of money. It addresses greed, prejudice, misconceptions... You just may thank me later.
I've read opinions on politics which, upon initial inspection, sounded good. But after some deeper study, found these ideas short sighted and lacking the understanding mistakes recorded in the past.
This reference you pasted reminds me to continue to educate, educate, educate myself and to share ideas with others. Thank you. -
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Re: Dude...
Mon, August 23, 2010 - 1:23 PMhow terribly sad and misinformed . . . for starters you're blaming people for things that are quite out of their hands - one example - first you site "self discipline" then state "broke" "friends" of yours spend beyond their means then you go on to blame said "broke" people if they do the economically "sound" thing and buy goods as cheaply as they can, and then you blame THEM because the goods are made outside of the U.S. you are completely ignoring the facts i.e. places such as walmart dictate prices and where they purchase goods made available for sale in the U.S., not potentially "patriotic", if "broke", consumers. Also, I'd like to know where you think capitalism has ever "worked", because I think THAT argument could be blown out of the water as soon as any one other than yourself looks at it objectively. Of course we need to learn from history - just look at the Soviet Union - minus Stalin and it was a highly progressive and empowering system - the same can not be said for capitalism anywhere at anytime. -
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Re: Dude...
Thu, August 26, 2010 - 10:08 PMYeah, minus the murder and control of every aspect of people's lives, communism works great. As long as freedom is not important to you. And if you think capitalism doesn't work, it's only because you haven't made it work for you. I made it work for me, and I'm perfectly happy with it. In a capitalistic society, you have a choice what you do with your life. You can work hard and make a good life for yourself, or you can sit around and bitch that others have more than you. And use socialistic government to take it away from them at gunpoint and give it to you. Do what you will, I'll never quit fighting against legal theft. -
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Re: Dude...
Fri, August 27, 2010 - 3:07 AM*rolls eyes @ lester ugh god this is boring. so i'm a socialist because i'm avaricious? and i haven't "made" capitalism "work" for me? *sighs good luck with that . . . more of the same old ignorance . . . -
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Re: Dude...
Fri, August 27, 2010 - 9:57 AMIf it has worked for you, why do you have such a problem with it? -
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Re: Dude...
Fri, August 27, 2010 - 2:33 PMugh you don't understand ethics, morals or politics? you don't understand anything but solipsism? honestly, I can't be bothered. I've had too many debates, discussions etc. with my political enemies and just plain stupid people to want to do it any more. good luck. -
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Re: Dude...
Fri, August 27, 2010 - 3:22 PMYeah Mick Lester does not understand, He collects government unemployment insurance while bitching about free loading nare d wells.
He is a tea bagger. Gets his data and opinions from FOX
JSin
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Re: Dude...
Fri, August 27, 2010 - 3:19 PMLMMFAO
Worked for you as you collect unemployment. Lester please... Quit Lying... Socialist programs like Unemployment haven saved you ass.
Fucking Hypocrite
You have earned nothing you contribute nothing,
My (yes I pay taxes) have supported you. You are welcome
Ya see I see value in helping people who fall on hard times. Even you Lester
keep sucking on the government milk, while bitching about the quality.
JSin -
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Re: Dude...
Sat, August 28, 2010 - 12:33 AMAnd I suppose you think I don't pay taxes. I've paid plenty, and will continue to do so. Your big bitch is about my collecting unemployment. That is an insurance policy, that I was forced to purchase. Your diatribes about not collecting on insurance policies that I have paid for is utter nonsense. I've contributed nothing? I'd like to see you try to drive around Southern California if all the bridges and highways I have had a part in building were suddenly removed. And, by the way, I rarely even turn the TV to Fox. In fact, I haven't hardly turned the TV on in the last couple months. As long as I am a taxpayer, and a voter, I have every right to bitch about things in government I don't like. You just go on about your communist endeavors. I can only wish you were in another country, trying to bring them down to the level of the Third World, instead of this one. -
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Re: Dude...
Sat, August 28, 2010 - 5:59 PMIt's pretty sad to me that anyone would sit around and cast aspersions on their fellow citizens as if they are all a bunch of free-loading n'er-do-wells. Capitalism needs improvement. Communist and Socialist governments didn't work because they didn't hold true to their values. The functionality of any system depends entirely on the quality of the people running it.
Take Bhutan for example. recently, the king decided they would become a democratic country much to the chagrin of his subjects. They didn't see any reason to vote because they have been happy with his rule. (Bhutan also judged its success my a national happiness index).
If one system was intrinsically better than another, and none of the ideas from one should be incorporated in the other, you should stop accepting those unemployment checks, Lester and rescind all worker's rights when you do go back to work because if Marx had never posited that workers be treated humanely, you would be in a sweat shop as we speak. It's foolish to blindly follow one doctrine and throw the baby out with the bathwater. Human are complex species that need complex ways of addressing issues.
Grow up a bit and drop the cynicism. You'll be happier for it. Besides, your discontent will last a lifetime if you're waiting for libertarianism to save anything. -
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Re: Dude...
Sun, August 29, 2010 - 12:10 PMI never expected that LIbertarianism would fix the woes of this country, but I still feel that I must at least vote for liberty, and against tyranny. And when somebody tries to tear down the country that I love, I must stand up for it, even if that person will never understand what I love about this place.
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