God or The Devil?

topic posted Thu, October 2, 2008 - 9:45 PM by  Unsubscribed
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who are you voting for in November and why?
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  • Re: God or The Devil?

    Fri, October 3, 2008 - 8:05 PM
    Neither is God, neither is the Devil.

    And neither is competent to hold the job.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: God or The Devil?

      Fri, October 3, 2008 - 11:26 PM
      obama ain't competent? c'mon. . . .

      and the god and devil reference was to imply the generally binary nature of politics is all.
      • Re: God or The Devil?

        Sat, October 4, 2008 - 3:08 AM
        There was a great article in The Age in Australia where the journo was advocating that the whole world should be able to vote - as the result will affect us all :)

        I recon Obama can do the job... Most people I know favour him down under ....
        • Re: God or The Devil?

          Sat, October 4, 2008 - 6:53 AM
          Cas - Most people I know in Canada favor Obama (maybe even more than any of our own pols who are up for election in two weeks) and would probably be more excited to vote in the US dog and pony show than a Canadian election that's actually about issues. Even though they'd essentially be voting for Bush's economic and foreign policies by re-electing Harper (the dude who cribbed his Iraq speech from Howard, just to let you know just how exactly he was on the same page as Bush, Blair and Howard). It's kind of interesting to note that the UK is having the same kind of meltdown as in the US (though it's being talked about less) and Blair was totally Bush's lapdog. Fortunately Canada only recently got on the Bush bandwagon and Harper only had a minority government so we haven't had the same kind of meltdown (the Australian economy seems to be being effected a bit worse than the Canadian so far but the crisis in the US will have lots of repercussions here). Too bad Obama is being touted as instrumental in the ridiculous bailout plan instead of pushing for one that helps citizens instead of throwing money at corporations that created their own disaster - kind of sweeps away his power to the people community organizer kind of image and shows that he's quite willing to be a corporate lackey. That said, he's obviously still preferable. Too bad it probably doesn't matter who the American people actually vote for considering all the voting machine mess and there being no paper trail or outsider electoral observers to ensure the vote is legal and honest.
          • Re: God or The Devil?

            Sat, October 4, 2008 - 9:43 AM
            >>Too bad Obama is being touted as instrumental in the ridiculous bailout plan instead of pushing for one that helps citizens instead of throwing money at corporations that created their own disaster - kind of sweeps away his power to the people community organizer kind of image and shows that he's quite willing to be a corporate lackey<<

            hear fucking hear!
            • Re: God or The Devil?

              Sat, October 4, 2008 - 12:08 PM
              Obama doesn't have much a choice in supporting the bailout plan. He has made it pretty clear he doesnt like it much, but he also recognizes its going to pass regardless, and seriously he would be shooting his campaign in the foot if he didn't support it somehow.Even half heartedly.



            • Re: God or The Devil?

              Sat, October 4, 2008 - 12:10 PM
              "Too bad Obama is being touted as instrumental in the ridiculous bailout plan instead of pushing for one that helps citizens instead of throwing money at corporations that created their own disaster - kind of sweeps away his power to the people community organizer kind of image and shows that he's quite willing to be a corporate lackey."

              Given the complexity of the fucked up economic situation we have recently found ourselves in I don't think this is even a remotely fair statement. While I find what the megaconglomocrops have done and the fact that they're getting bailed out of their own shitty gambles, I do also believe that we had to do *something* to stop the bleeding.

              But, I'm caught up in an extremely uncharacteristic wave of optimism for an Obama/Biden regime so maybe I'm just butthurt.
              • Re: God or The Devil?

                Sat, October 4, 2008 - 12:21 PM
                Bundlers for McCain, Obama Are Among Wall Street's Tumblers
                Published by Massie Ritsch on September 18, 2008

                How did Wall Street's largest firms also become some of the largest donors to John McCain and Barack Obama's presidential campaigns? Take a look at the candidates' rosters of bundlers on OpenSecrets.org, and it becomes clear.


                McCain's list includes at least 69 individuals who, according to his campaign, have raised a total of at least $11.4 million for his campaign. That makes the struggling investment industry his top source of bundlers. (Bundlers are those wealthy individuals who hit up their coworkers, family and friends to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars, in addition to any contributions from their own pockets.) In the second spot is the real estate industry, where at least 55 individuals have delivered a total of $9.5 million or more to McCain. Overall, bundlers in the finance, insurance and real estate sector have hauled in at least $30 million for the Republican candidate -- far more than any other sector.



                Obama's list gives the appearance that he has not leaned so heavily on bundlers working on Wall Street, although since his campaign has ignored repeated requests from the Center for Responsive Politics and other watchdog groups to disclose his bundlers' employers and occupations, these figures are probably undercounts. The securities and investment industry is Obama's second-largest source of bundlers, after lawyers, and at least 56 individuals have raised at least $8.9 million for his campaign. Bundlers in the larger finance, insurance and real estate sector have collected at least $13.4 million for Obama, making it his most generous sector.



                Bundlers for the McCain campaign include Merrill Lynch CEO John Thain, who is listed as raising at least half a million dollars. That may help explain why Merrill Lynch's employees have made the firm McCain's biggest donor -- when the boss is giving, others follow suit. McCain's bundles have also come in from executives at Lehman Brothers, the firm formerly known as Bear Stearns, Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan Chase, Credit Suisse and Wachovia. Former senator Phil Gramm, an executive at UBS, and Geoffrey Boisi, a board member for rescued mortgage buyer Freddie Mac, have both reportedly raised between $100,000 and $250,000 for McCain.



                Obama's list of bundlers includes several executives at Citigroup, who together have raised between $600,000 and $1.5 million. Executives at Lehman Brothers, Credit Suisse and Goldman Sachs (Obama's number-one donor) are also in the mix.



                Overall, the securities and investment industry has contributed about $10 million to Obama and $7 million to McCain. To all federal candidates for president and Congress, and to political parties, the industry has contributed more than $101 million in the 2008 election cycle, 56 percent of it to Democrats. The Democrats' edge is a relatively recent development, however; Republicans had the advantage for most of the last 10 years.



                Contributions from the commercial banking industry are roughly split between Obama and McCain -- $2 million for the Democrat, $1.9 million for the Republican. The banking industry has contributed about $25 million in this election cycle to federal candidates and parties, giving 52 percent to Republicans.


                www.opensecrets.org/news/200...-are.html
                • Re: God or The Devil?

                  Sun, October 5, 2008 - 12:17 AM
                  Good luck getting elected without taking money from any of those people... Ralph Nader, anyone?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: God or The Devil?

                    Sun, October 5, 2008 - 12:20 AM
                    I gave money to Obama,my name is on that list.
                    • Re: God or The Devil?

                      Sun, October 5, 2008 - 12:34 AM
                      Moi, aussi Elaine.

                      I reject the silly notion that our politicians are ever going to be the epitome of the perfect being despite the fact that the whole system is wrought with fuckedupness. As long as people are running things, it's never going to be a clean process with integrity throughout. If you want a perfect system, The Matrix is as close as we may get... as long as we can suppress that Neo character.

                      Financially, we are screwed for a while no matter who gets elected but I prefer someone that talks to Americans like adults and actually has bothered to give some detail on his plans. I also find it bothersome that most Americans want more details from Obama when we have gotten nothing but vague catch phrases from McCain.

                      I have an analogy about being so cynical about not voting for either candidate based on idealism in politics.

                      I told a friend of mine that I was going to but a lottery ticket and he expressed his dismay. He thinks it's a waste because that dollar is just making someone rich. I thought about this and came to the conclusion that just about everything else I spend money on: food, clothes, gas, movies, utilities etc. is making someone rich. The thing is, my money is always doing someone more good than it's doing me. Yes, I get something in return, but is it really commensurate to the effort I expended to get that currency? I want to spend it somewhere with even a small chance of getting some big payoff. Hey, Clinton did some scheisty things too, but he did some pretty good things as well, comparatively!

                      Obama is inevitably going to disappoint in some ways, but he has a better shot at impressing us. Lincoln had experience commensurate with Obama when he took the white house and he's older than JFK was. He has a lot less dirty laundry so far than many others and he doesn't freak the fuck out.

                      I wonder.... what is the qualification for President? No one has real presidential experience unless they were VP, and who wants Cheney?
                      • Re: God or The Devil?

                        Sun, October 5, 2008 - 12:57 AM
                        In our bipartisan system there are only 2 real choices that count (not that I agree that it is how things should be), and since I know a lot of real behind the scenes things about the good senator from Arizona - my choice is overwhelmingly for Barack Hussein Obama II.
              • Re: God or The Devil?

                Sun, October 5, 2008 - 5:09 AM
                Oh I realize that Obama doesn't have much choice but to play politics and he's a politician. However the bailout really seems like throwing good money after bad considering how it seems to be put together and not really something that will do much over the longterm (and only do a little in the short term and only for the already rich). It's just going to delay the inevitable (but it may give the rest of the world the opportunity to shift the global economy so that it's not dependent upon the dollar) and make the rich even richer and the poor even poorer - this IS Bush/Rove/Cheney stealing the last food out of the American larder before moving on. Essentially most US citizens will become indentured servants of the government who work to service debt because their taxes have been given (before they're even collected) to the corporations (and the few people who get insanely rich off of them) who have already siphoned all the available (and prospective income) from individual citizens. A bailout that actually supported citizens not corporations (and corporate execs who knew what they were doing and figured they could count on their buddy Paulson who got rid of the pesky regulations in the first place to trade in their vanishing speculative profits for cold hard cash from the government. It really was quite an elegant shell game if one looks at the progression from the changing of the regulations in 2004 to today. What could have been done, and if Obama was truly interested in serving the people and being the change he sells himself as, he could have promoted a bill that helped citizens more and said that if there was going to be corporate welfare by golly there'd be help for the people too and the corporate welfare would be managed with an iron fist and strong oversight - the corporations would have hated him but it would have been the start of real banking reform and a government that collected taxes from the people to serve the people not just pay off their buddies who hardly pay any taxes. Yes, I understand it's politics but it seems to indicate more of the same in the future (in both terms of corporate pandering and more economic problems due to shoddy and non-reality based money "management), which doesn't bode well no matter who gets elected in the US. It also means the real problems won't get looked at or resolved and this cycle will continue with ever diminishing returns. People should panic if they're invested in futures that don't exist, we've come to the end of the myth of infinite expansion and growth - all the wars in China won't change that or create good lives for people around the world.
                • Re: God or The Devil?

                  Sun, October 5, 2008 - 5:55 PM
                  Yep,Fifi, I am in agreement about the Bailout. Or Failout.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: God or The Devil?

                    Sun, October 5, 2008 - 11:27 PM
                    No one in this country alive today has experienced super-bad economic times...but they will.
                    We are a hop, skip, and a jump from the sort of failure Russia experienced - and the Republican agenda seems to think taxpayer pockets are bottomless. They are not. Our money on the world market could fail overnight, and is currently in danger of doing just that. Outsourcing has put our debt in foreign hands...and our economy as well. In a heartbeat, the rest of the world could decide our money is worthless, and since we get our product from the world market, and produce little to nothing for ourselves, the world market has US by the gonards.

                    They quit taking our money, we are toast. Simple demographics and economics. Stupid politics on our government's part. We...the citizens may pay the price of this folly...and soon. Just as Russia did.

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