Dale Coventry, and W. Jamie Kunz, attorneys for Andrew Wilson, had their client voluntary confess to them he had killed a security guard. While another man, Alton Logan, was on trial for just that murder. Due to attorney/client privilege, the two lawyers kept their mouths shut, although telling the attorney representing Logan "You represent an innocent man."

They kept their fingers crossed during Logan's trial, concerned about a possible death sentence. Logan was sentenced to life, so they continued to remain silent until Wilson passed away in 2007. Then, they came forward with the confession. Of course Logan is still in jail as the case is being reviewed.

Strikes me there's something way off here. But, I'm not sure there was any fair way out for the two attorneys.

60 minutes story here: www.cbsnews.com/stories/20...14719.shtml
posted by:
  • What is way off??

    Well the problem is the delusion a great many people labor under in believing that the criminal courts system is an instrument of Justice.

    It is not.

    It is a game played by the cops courts and Lawyers which has as a component the core concept of:

    It is not what you did it is what they can prove.

    JSin
  • There was a long article about this subject about 2-3 years ago in San Francisco magazine. It seems there are people still serving life sentences for crimes to which others have confessed, but the 'justice' system either will not let them appeal, or takes so lone to allow and appeal, or they can't afford an appeal, that they cannot get out even though their long protested innocence has been proven.
  • > But, I'm not sure there was any fair way out for the two attorneys.

    PS. Bullshit. When you know someone is innocent and about to serve a life sentence, you fucking say something!!!!!
    • There's the rub, you open your mouth, you have violated attorney-client privilege.
      Now, up before the ethics committee of the local Bar, and perhaps disbarment.
      Not to mention - not another client will hire you cause you can't be trusted.

      Actually, I think what I would have done first was go before the ethics committee myself. and dump it in their lap.
      Then ? ? ?
      • Oh, bloody good idea! VERY good thinking.
        • the attorneys' ability to act on their knowledge to a great deal depends on exactly when they received the confession -- but usually there isn't a thing they can do without losing their livelihoods - for the reasons already mentioned here. Anybody involved in criminal defense is going to run into a situation like this probably at least once. The only time they are clear to act is if they're informed that their client is engaging right then in an illegal activity, or planning to execute a crime. Then they are actually required to act.

          Sometimes an attorney will try to get the information out "into the street" in some way that can't be connected with them, and just hope that somebody picks up on that information; or they might try to get some other informant to go to the police with the tip, but that is much more dangerous for the attorneys. It's a real quandary. The ethics involved in providing a defense can definitely conflict with ethics at large -- but so can the very idea of providing a defense for every accused in the first place.

          You can let the ethics committee know this is the situation but they're there to enforce the bar association rules -- and the rules are, keep your mouth shut.

          And people stuck in this situation will rationalize to themselves that a confession is not proof of guilt. And really, it isn't.

          This is why defense attorneys don't ask people if they're guilty and will usually cut them off if the client tries to tell them on their own. They need to not know -- because if they do know the person is guilty, it restricts the kinds of things they can do to defend them. Though it doesn't prohibit defending them.
          • Yes but you know what? I don't care what anyone says, it is completely inhuman and unethical to stand by and see another person's entire, unique, one and only life be ruined by a lie, when you can prevent that happening. People should have gone into the law because they gave a damn about justice. And if they give a damn about justice, then they cannot stand aside and watch what is tantamount to murder. If they do, it is a wonder to me that they can sleep at night. In fact, I hope they can't sleep at night.
            • I know this sounds flame invoking but what exactly is Justice??

              You say folks should have gone into law for it, they should give a damn about it.

              Can ya measure it, is it identifiable

              How do you know you have it?

              Most lawyers I have met are in it because they like winning, fuck the ways whats and hows. I think for most attorneys justice as a real or abstract concept is the furthest from their mind. Money and winning.. Now those are motivating factors.

              JSin

              JSin
              • "Most lawyers I have met are in it because they like winning, fuck the ways whats and hows. I think for most attorneys justice as a real or abstract concept is the furthest from their mind. Money and winning.. Now those are motivating factors."

                Unfortunately, this is true. Although there are people in EVERY profession that the average American holds to an unfair standard, somehow assuming that taking certain positions has some extraordinary significance. There are plenty of teachers, fire fighters, police officers, doctors, lawyers, etc. that are in their profession because they're good at it or like a challenge or want big money, etc. etc. I'm not sure it's fair (I really am on the fence) to hold these people to any standard we wouldn't hold any other average person to.
            • "Yes but you know what? I don't care what anyone says, it is completely inhuman and unethical to stand by and see another person's entire, unique, one and only life be ruined by a lie, when you can prevent that happening. People should have gone into the law because they gave a damn about justice. And if they give a damn about justice, then they cannot stand aside and watch what is tantamount to murder. If they do, it is a wonder to me that they can sleep at night. In fact, I hope they can't sleep at night."

              I think that's easier to say when you're not in their shoes. It's not YOUR family and livelihood on the line.
              • >I think that's easier to say when you're not in their shoes. It's not YOUR famil...

                Yes that's true, BUT I also think we are all faced, at some point, with a choice between doing what is expedient, and doing what is right. In my last job I knew what my line was, and I knew that if asked to cross it, I was prepared to resign and be deported (I was on a visa). The line concerned Monsanto. I was lucky in that I did not get asked to cross the line. But I have, in the past, stayed unemployed rather than work in the nuclear industry.

                I'm no saint. I have made many compromises, but just sometimes in one's life there is something that is bigger than normal. I think this choice they had was one of those.

                Also, I come from Europe. In France they prosecuted Nazis despite the defense that they were 'only doing their jobs'. That was no defense for mass murder. There is also a law under which you will be prosecuted if you stand by and don't help someone whose life is in danger. This means my mindset is different from the prevailing one here, which is 'oh but if I step in I might get hurt or get sued, so tough, sorry'.
                It's not like I'm so fucking great, it's just two different cultures.
                • <<There is also a law under which you will be prosecuted if you stand by and don't help someone whose life is in danger.>>

                  I believe there are actually a few place in the US that have good samaritan laws as well. Of course I doubt lawyers would make a connection between that and their own owed duty to justice.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    God, I am so amazed that not a single person in this tribe has yet manifested anything except a 'yeah well, the innocent guy got life, but of course the lawyers couldn't endanger their jobs'. Not one of you appears outraged, or even mildly upset.

                    I am sorely disappointed in all of you. Especially the people I thought had some heart and some fire in it.
                    • That is a bit harsh and judgmental and I must say quite sad to hear from you. Many of us have radically different points of view in this tribe. Since when is it a requirement that we all express outrage about the same issues? I don't even expect everyone on my friends list to agree with me or be concerned by all the same issues that concern me let alone everyone who participates in this tribe. It is disappointing to hear that you don't respect that we all may hold different opinions and levels of concern about various subjects.
                      And I am not sure why you assume that because some of us haven't chimed in with the same level of outrage that it means that we aren't disturbed by the situation. We can't all fight every battle.
                    • >>Not one of you appears outraged, or even mildly upset. <<

                      I'm a bit outraged. I find it hard to beleive that there is no rule for lawyers stating they must come forward if they have personal knowledge of an inocent person being sent to prison. There must be something like that I bet.

                      Sorry I haven't been chiming in too much lately, I've been a bit on the busy side.
                    • Actually I am outraged... Not by simply this case but the direction of the criminal courts system, the manifestations of the govt at this time. The fucked up paramilitary gang called the cops, and the piece of shit slime feeding lawyers that perpetrate an cryptic set of laws and procedures for their greedy competitive benefit.

                      Does that line of verbage make it more clear to you how I really feel about the whole broken fucked up system.

                      JSin
                      • > Does that line of verbage make it more clear to you how I really feel about the whole broken fucked up system.

                        Yes and now I am smiling, because I think you are even more outraged than me, so now I feel we could have a beer together.

                        I'm sorry I disappointed Yuni. I never claimed to be openminded. I guess this issue touches core values of mine--freedom and justice--and so I felt very wierd apparently standing alone against a bunch of Realpolitik. I feel relieved to know that others are disturbed.
                        • Having conversed with you for a while I think you are a lot more open minded than you are giving yourself credit for at this time. I understand feeling passionately about an issue and I respect that. For me it is always much better to encounter those who have strong ideas about some things rather than those who try to walk the neutral line on everything.

                          Like I said, I am always saddened by the death penalty being legal. It always amazes me how many people aren't concerned with that in the least.
                        • kalsang wrote:
                          >"I guess this issue touches core values of mine--freedom and justice"<

                          This is part of the problem. The 2 really in many ways <as manifested in the Amerikkkan system> are actually diametrically opposed. Both also are very slippery to define.

                          As I asked before What is justice? How do you measure it? How do you know you have it?

                          Same with freedom.

                          Justice being the core of this issue though is what is worthy of discussion at this time. Personally I think the concept should be scrapped because it is not measurable. Instead we should use something calculatable and measurable. Personally I think Harm is the most viable.

                          A person should be left alone by the laws and legal system except in such case that demonstratable harm has been caused by the accused. If no harm has occurred the law should not extend to cover said acts. Which means things like the War on Drugs and what have you need to simply go away.

                          The current system. Well it is the current system and would require an entire overhaul of the bones of the govt. Perhaps not a bad plan, but at this time not viable because the majority of folks are apathetic morons happy in their SUVs sucking coffee out of their crotches.

                          JSin
                          • JSin - Well said, I'm with you on the harm thing but that's also difficult to calculate (isn't this actually the basis of at least part of the US justice system, that you can sue people for causing you harm?). Isn't "justice" always (in theory but not always in practice) a balancing act between individual and collective rights? My general feeling is that humans are flawed, we make mistakes, it's our nature. Our humanity will find its way into any of our systems - they should be built to accommodate what is not how we wish things would be ideally. Men always get into problems when they promote ideas over people - or try to stuff people into their ideals.
                            • Sure the civil courts are based on harm. The question that becomes difficult to define is How much is the harm worth. Not so much if harm occurred. Demonstrating culpability becomes more a matter of evidenciary procedure.

                              It starts to become more a case of one persons rights end where another persons nose begins.

                              Fifi stated:
                              >"Isn't "justice" always (in theory but not always in practice) a balancing act between individual and collective rights?"<
                              even if ya look the definition up it tells you almost nothing:
                              >"us·tice (jsts)
                              n.
                              1. The quality of being just; fairness.
                              2.
                              a. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
                              b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
                              3.
                              a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
                              b. Law The administration and procedure of law.

                              Personally I don't see it as a balancing of collective vrs individual rights. Aside from the lack of enumeration of what these "collective rights" are.

                              As far as how we wish things would be ideally, again undefinable and impossible to gain any sort of agreement as to what that is. Do we follow a Judeo Xian Islamic Model? or perhaps a Confucian model, Hindu maybe.

                              For my taste it is far too fuzzy to hang people's lives on.

                              JSin
                              • I see what you mean JSin, and didn't someone or other (probably Groucho Marx) say he couldn't define art but he knew it when he saw it?

                                I can't define justice but when I see blatant injustice I know what I'm seeing. I think sometimes we get so hung in mentalising it that we end up rationalising the worst injustices away. Such as the slave trade, or rape within marriage, or keeping stumm when you know that by doing so you're ruining someone's entire existence, for ever.

                                Isn't there a flavour, an emotional flavour, that corresponds to it? Or something?

                                I do this myself--know things in my body but then rationalise it to shit until I can't think clearly at all anymore. It's one of the things I'd like to stop doing. Plus, like Yuni, I prefer people who take a damn stand, than those who sit around keeping the boat from rocking.

                                Someone else said, "There are only a handful of tyrants at any one time, but there are millions who don't care."
                                • kalsang - How is this a case of tyranny? It really sucks and highlights issues with a legal system but there doesn't exist a human system that doesn't have issues and this doesn't seem tyrannical but more like a Catch-22 kind of situation (damned if you do, damned if you don't).

                                  I'm not trying to dismiss your feelings of outrage, you have a right to feel however you do (of course!). I just question whether this is actually tyranny. Maybe it is and I'm just not seeing how. How do you think it's tyranny?
                                  • Kalsang used a quote about apathy that also mentions tyranny. Interpretation is in the eye of the beholder, I guess because I didn't get the impression she was using it to indicate that this was a case of tyranny. To me it seemed she was highlighting how common (and in the end more harmful) apathy can be.
                                    • Yuni - Thanks for your impression and interpretation of what kalsang meant - while you may well be correct I'll take kalsang as the authority on what she herself meant. Which, of course, is why I asked her directly rather than for people's impressions of what she meant.
                                      • Fifi I wasn't trying to speak for Kalsang or even disrespect your take on things or your right to ask her what she meant. I was simply sharing that I had a different interpretation when I read the quote. Which is why I made a point of saying interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. If you don't wish to hear what any other person other than Kalsang thinks about something in this thread then perhaps the best option for you is to turn to personal messages. That way you won't run into the chance of having anyone else express their unwanted thoughts. This is a semi-public forum and thus it is subject to ideas and interpretations from anyone who is in this tribe.

                                        Thanks and good day.
                                    • Yes, Yuni is right I was using the quote to express how common apathy is, and how it does more harm than we think when we are being apathetic, since the real evildoers are few, but our lack of reaction lets them get away with it. I did not mean that this case was one of tyranny. I think tyranny necessarily involves power over a lot of people, and this is not a case of that.
                          • "Personally I think Harm is the most viable."

                            I'm certainly not here to argue that the justice system works, however I don't agree that Harm is any more demonstrable or measurable than Justice or Freedom. In all three concepts we can easitly identify the clear-cut, obvious violations or applications. However, all of them have grey areas that still require a cultural definition.
                    • I'm from Europe too. I'm with you kalsang. But I don't really have much to add to the thread.

                      I think lawyers should have been required to speak up, and as they didn't I'd like to see the innocent person be compensated (by those lawyers) for 26 yrs of loss of income and some price for his loss of freedom. I agree "doing your job" should be no defense for negligence of truth and justice.

                      How about we lock lawyers up for 26 years, and then see if they want to change the law!

                      My lack of understanding here is that if someone is guilty of breaking the law, then why are they protected by the law they don't wish to honor?

                      On the Samaritan issue, I think the problem is that too many Americans will sue someone for helping them, but not being perfect.
                      I remember this is what happened in "The Incredibles" (albeit a cartoon movie) - some guy jumps, a superhero saves him, then the "saved man" sues the superhero!
                      I wish I could be a judge and throw out "stupid lawsuits" - like the old lady being burned by drive-thru coffee in her lap as she drove over a speed bump!
                      No better, fine the lawyers for wasting courts time.