Had a conversation today with a Tibetan Monk, and the final thought was that Tibetan Buddhism may (only MAY) diminish considerably when the old Lamas from Tibet finally hit the grave . . . taking their knowledge with them . . . Will it really matter to you? ?
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Fri, August 15, 2008 - 7:15 AMNah.
Not any more than when Jesus, Mohammed, Jim Jones, Buddha, or L. Ron Hubbard died.
Mainly because I have not found any particular value in their teachings that I couldn't or didn't get elsewhere. And that's a good thing. It means that the ideas they touted are vastly bigger and more enduring than the people.
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Fri, August 15, 2008 - 9:32 AMIf ya believe that Sam you haven't been understanding what the Lamas do.. They are not the depository of knowledge but rather simply the means by which the "knowledge" is transmitted to the world.
If the death of a mortal is enough to destroy the knowledge it was weak to begin with.
JSin -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Fri, August 15, 2008 - 9:42 AMJosh and JSin pretty much summed it up. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Fri, August 15, 2008 - 9:51 AMDoesn't the Dalai Lama reincarnate over and over? Isn't the current one just a the vessel of another long dead holy man? -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Fri, August 15, 2008 - 10:05 AM"Doesn't the Dalai Lama reincarnate over and over? Isn't the current one just a the vessel of another long dead holy man?"
Well, I think Eddie Murphy is the current one but I'm not sure because I fell asleep half way through that documentary, Golden Boy.
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Sun, August 17, 2008 - 4:36 PMWe all take knowledge with us to the grave, but our lives are full of sharing as well. What do you mean precisely by this generality?
It's sad that 'The Chinese, [in their wisdom]' are led by a government which chooses to use so*It's* wisdom most horribly!
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Unsu...
Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Sun, August 17, 2008 - 5:29 PMI know this is OT, but honestly, this tribe is kind of turning into a train wreck lately IMO.
That's cool, I like it. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Sun, August 17, 2008 - 10:16 PMThis tribe is cyclical. It always has been. We go through stages of extreme loving and extreme intelligence, extreme ranting crazy people being the only ones who post, extreme humor, extreme politics, extreme religious discussions, extreme spirituality and extreme atheism, extreme whining, extreme racial friction discussions, extreme sexuality discussions, extreme hostility, extreme discussions on honesty and the truth and the truth vs honesty and which one of them would win in a WWF smack down and then discussions about what beer or cocktail we love most.
It all comes around eventually. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Sun, August 17, 2008 - 11:28 PMAnd it's summer, so peeps are out doing things. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Mon, August 18, 2008 - 2:12 PM>>And it's summer, so peeps are out doing things.<<
True Dat.
The Chinese have recently annointed a slightly lesser Lama (also a reincarnated position) to the Dali who was picked by government officials and rubber stamped by a rogue monk or two. It stands to reason they will try this when the The Dalai Lama goes. Might kill the lineage, but there is plenty of record of teachings and knowledge for people to waork with.
Even though I'm an atheist and a person who tends to not beleive in mainstream spiritual leaders I have always been a big fan of the Dalai Lama. He's humorous, non-judgemental, beleive in science, and is willing to question authority. He's OK by me! -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Mon, August 18, 2008 - 3:54 PMPaper, gunpowder, fireworks, printing, refined herbalism, and the Great Wall - that's a start.
I (*love*) the 14th Dalai Lama - what a beautiful, bright, sparkling soul!!! -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 4:40 AMMisha - Yeah, the various Chinese cultures are very rich and they invented all kinds of things we take for granted...noodles, for instance. Where would we be without noodles? (Down one Spaghetti Monster at least!)
I too appreciate the Dalai Lama - he's an intelligent and thoughtful man, and seems to have a pretty good sense of humor. It will be interesting to see how things in Tibet play out since he's advocating a middle path while many Tibetans don't want to settle for less than total autonomy, and he's also facing attacks and power struggles within Tibetan Buddhism. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 8:42 AMwww.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd.htm
<<<Comments by the Dalai Lama:
The Dalai Lama is the leader of the Tibetan people and is revered by millions of Buddhists worldwide. At a press conference in 1997-JUN, he commented: "From a Buddhist point of view [lesbian and gay sex]...is generally considered sexual misconduct".
This belief is not based on the partners being of the same gender. In his book "Beyond Dogma," he has written that "homosexuality, whether it is between men or between women, is not improper in itself. What is improper is the use of organs already defined as inappropriate for sexual contact." Tibetan Buddhism prohibits oral, manual and anal sex for everyone - both homosexuals and heterosexuals. However, these restrictions refer only to members of the Buddhist faith. 4 From "society's viewpoint," same-sex relations can be "of mutual benefit, enjoyable and harmless." He supports human rights "regardless of sexual orientation."
At a subsequent meeting with gay and lesbian representatives, he expressed the "willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context." Dawa Tsering, spokesperson for the Office of Tibet commented: "His Holiness opposes violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation. He urges respect, tolerance, compassion and the full recognition of human rights for all." 5
An article in Newsweek stated that "Although he has affirmed the dignity and rights of gays and lesbians, he has condemned homosexual acts as contrary to Buddhist ethics." 8
The Dalai Lama was interviewed by CBC News at the time of his visit to Canada during 2007-NOV. Near the end of his interview he was asked whether Buddhism condones love between two men or two women. He replied that Buddhists reject this. Genuine Buddhist practitioners, like Christians, condemn same-sex behavior as sexual misconduct. "So, [it is] not permissible, not allowed." 11
His understanding of Christian views on homosexuality appears to be in error. While conservative Christians generally consider all same-sex behavior to be sexual misconduct, most liberal and some mainline Christians accept same-sex behavior between persons in a loving, committed relationship to be life-affirming and moral.
The CBC web site published 77 comments by listeners. Many touched upon his homosexual comments. One was posted on 2007-NOV-05 at 12:18 AM by a Buddhist couple David and Luc Chateauneuf-Kurzer
"The Dalai Lama's comments on same-sex love could be considered by some to be taken out of context. However, the words he used are very familiar to us and simply represent an outmoded form of exclusion that is common to most religions. We would suggest that he continues to talk the 'party line' rather than evolve Buddhism's view of non-heterosexual love. Some would say that Buddhism has no place in the bedroom. We would then respond that any comment on sexuality is inappropriate. Either way, social justice for Buddhist gays and lesbians is not encouraged by the words captured in his interview. And social justice is so much of what His Holiness advocates. This does not stop us from following the Buddhist path because we are used to mainstream religious exclusion. It is part of our spiritual path to change that by being ourselves wherever we go. And in our fourteen years together, that is exactly what we have done. So we will continue our work to further the cause for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered Buddhists."<<<<
I found this interesting. NOw I like me some Dalai Lama, but it was kind of refreshing to find something I could disagree with him about.
ANyway, posted and snipped out for your own musing upon. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 8:53 AMElaine - Yes, it's easy to forget the realities of Tibetan Buddhism and the generally anti-sex (or anti-fun sex!) attitude that bans all kinds of natural sexual activities.
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:50 AMFrom what I can tell there aren't many religions that don't have a weird view of sex. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:55 AMYooneee! - Yeah, good point. A lot of Westerners just tend to see Buddhism as being analogous to the hippy peace/love/free sex thing when it can actually be pretty fundamentalist in some forms - even the Dalai Lama pushes a version of Buddhism in the West that he knows will appeal to Westerners. -
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What Has the Dalai Lama done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 10:25 AMI am not Buddhist except from an experience level of falling into a vast Awareness spoken about by them . . . Particularly Dzogchen . . . (the writer has inadvertently have been doing since 1968). . .
The experience (The writer has experienced), parallels the teachings of the Buddha’s . . . (and the rest of all the masters that have recently past my eyes,) . . . so the teachings will never be lost for any length of time . . . due to the Awareness the Buddha's speak of, that flows thru people from all walks of life, with NO knowledge or following of any path done knowingly by other people . . .
BUT
It takes a skill (presently beyond this writer) to be able to write the experience in words that are easily available to others, for their own understanding of it . . .
One CAN only Love the humour along the way . . .
In Australia it’s the COOOOOLDEST driest winter in decades . . .
What the Chinese hav done seems to parallel the genocide that seems to be perpetrated by the armament sellers, coupled to the barbarity Human Beings seem to unleash from time to time . . . not fun . . . but Freedom exists in the hearts of the oppressed, regardless of fear, torture, and death . . .
I support the Dalai Lama . . . He’s a Cool Guy . . .
The Dalai Lama also said, that a Buddhist Conference needs to happen whereby the texts of the Buddhist Culture could be brought in line with accepted scientific consensus . . .
The Dalai Lama wrote
“ . . . there are a billion world systems like ours, with limitless billions of those. In some of them the teaching is newly being introduced; in some it is waning. The teaching continually remains somewhere at all times. The Buddha’s never disappear, and the teaching never vanishes.”
[Pg. 213 ‘How to Practice the way to a Meaningful Life’
Pub. Rider. ISBN 0-7126-1095-2
© 2002 by His Holiness The Dalai Lama and Jeffrey Hopkins]
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 11:05 AM
>>>Yooneee! - Yeah, good point. A lot of Westerners just tend to see Buddhism as being analogous to the hippy peace/love/free sex thing when it can actually be pretty fundamentalist in some forms - even the Dalai Lama pushes a version of Buddhism in the West that he knows will appeal to Westerners<<<<
Exactly. Lots of people think the Dalai Lama is like the embodiment of all that is good and godly. Whereas while he is a very cool guy and probably walk his talk, he is still a human with the human prejudices and judgments we all tend to have. -
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What does the Dalai Lama do?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 1:21 PMA point is reached in Awareness where even when annoyed, outraged, humiliated, etc . . . APPEARS to be happening to said monk . . . in the mind of said Monk may be an Awareness, which reveals that same experience to the Monk from the vantage point where so-called " . . . human prejudices and judgments we all tend to have. " may not (in ACTUALITY) be happening AT ALL . . .
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 3:34 PMElaine - "Whereas while he is a very cool guy and probably walk his talk, he is still a human with the human prejudices and judgments we all tend to have."
Totally, one of the reasons I like him is that he doesn't pretend not to be human. And, not surprisingly, like all people who don't get any he's got some pretty unrealistic and unnatural ideas about sex (apparently his love of science doesn't extend to biology or he'd recognize that homosexuality is natural). Hmmm, I wonder if the Dalai Lama ever had a secret wank...just to see what it feels like or because he couldn't help himself or whatever....or if he's lived a totally wank/orgasm free life!
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 1:04 PMElaine,
I think it’s important to understand there are a number of branches of Buddhism and many sects. The Dalai Lama is a well-known spokesperson for one of the sects, but he does not speak for all Buddhists.
As I understand it, Buddhist philosophy has little to do with good and bad, right and wrong. It’s just cause and effect. It is grasping for and clinging to sense objects, which causes suffering, not the experience of the sense object in-and-of-itself. The suggestion to refrain from sense pleasures (of which sex is one of many) is because many people are unable to experience sense pleasures without becoming attached to them, leading to clinging, resulting in suffering. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 5:50 PMSaddha, I know that he is only the spokes person for one particular branch of Buddhism, but many westerners don't know that. They see him as the face of all Buddhists. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Thu, August 21, 2008 - 8:40 AMElaine >> They see him as the face of all Buddhists. <<
Yes. I think that's true.
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 4:19 PM>>I found this interesting. NOw I like me some Dalai Lama, but it was kind of refreshing to find something I could disagree with him about. <<
With you there.
Who would have guessed, I figured if all his monks where those long skirts he was probably pretty open minded. *W* -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 8:37 PMThe way I figure it I'm an omnivore (former vegetarian) but I don't get up in arms when the Dalai Lama advocates vegetarianism so why should I get twisted up about our differences in views on sexuality? Especially since I suspect from his point of view the former is probably more (or just as) important. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Thu, August 21, 2008 - 8:43 AMYoon >> The way I figure it I'm an omnivore (former vegetarian) but I don't get up in arms when the Dalai Lama advocates vegetarianism <<
While many Buddhists are vegetarian, it is technically not a requirement. The suggestion to refrain from killing, the first precept, includes not killing animals, but does not preclude eating meat as long as you did not kill it, and it was not killed specifically on your behalf. That said, I think this suggestion was put into place at a time when most people killed their own food for themselves. It is arguable that meat you purchase at the market today was killed on your behalf in the sense that you are driving market demand, but that’s just my interpretation. Personally, I refrain from eating meat because of animal cruelty and environmental issues.
It should also be noted that Buddhist precepts are more like suggestions than rules. The third precept is to refrain from taking what is not freely given, which prohibits coercion to abide by or enforcement of rules. For example, I don’t think you could have a Buddhist police officer, because that job requires you to enforce rules, to coerce people into doing what they are not freely inclined to do, which would violate the third precept. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Thu, August 21, 2008 - 9:52 AMThat is not the point I was making. Abstaining from sexual activity isn't a requirement either. The point is no one ever seems to be bothered when he encourages vegetarianism but so many seem to be bothered (or disappointed) by his views on sex yet from where he sits one is probably not less or more important than the other.
And in countries where the majority of the population is Buddhist I am sure there are Buddhist police officers who feel just fine about themselves because as you said the precepts are more like suggestions than rules. -
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Re: Whhave the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Thu, August 21, 2008 - 1:09 PMYoon >> The point is no one ever seems to be bothered when he encourages vegetarianism but so many seem to be bothered (or disappointed) by his views on sex yet from where he sits one is probably not less or more important than the other. <<
Interesting point.
Yoon >> I am sure there are Buddhist police officers who feel just fine about themselves <<
There are many ways in which people can self-identify that are inconsistent with their actual behaviors.
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 8:44 AMi think i could probably live w/out noodles.
but, yeah, they are pretty good w/alfredo sauce.
ok, the truth is i have a weakness for fettucine (sp?) alfredo. a major weakness. i could eat that shit all day every day.
so i guess maybe i couldn't live w/out noodles.
wow, it looks like this thread actually provoked a realization in me.
thanks, sam. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 8:55 AMdave.....come...come my child into the noodly embrace of the great spaghetti monster where life is a feast of fettucine (for a short time only, you can obtain everlasting peace and eternal life for the small price of all your worldly possessions and firstborn boy child). -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:01 AMevil temptress! i'm losing my will to resist!
must...not...think about...buttery....garlicky...delicious.....parmesian cheese....noooooooooo!!!!! nooooooo!!!!!!
ok, fine. where do i sign up?
you'll have to give me a minute to find all my stuff. i ate mushrooms & cleaned my house yesterday. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:06 AMSign up? You are already one with the cheese...just let your aura melt into the great creamy sauce of life and understand that though we are all solitary noodles we are one dish!
dave - "you'll have to give me a minute to find all my stuff. i ate mushrooms & cleaned my house yesterday."
*rotflmao* Now THAT is funny (whether it is true or not!). -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:17 AMi'm already swimming in a universe of garlic?
dude, that's so awesome!
wait, but if i'm a part of it, then that means it's a part of me...doesn't that mean i don't need to eat anymore? -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:24 AMEr, the breatharian universe ruled by the mighty god Halitosis is two universes to the left and just a little bit further beyond the Computer Simulated Universe (run by Microsoft, you may want to avoid it)...just don't sneeze, they're a frail bunch. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:26 AMi bet that's where all the italian ladies hang out.
i can't wait til i get there!
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Mon, August 18, 2008 - 9:20 PMYeah, I am not a follower but the Dalai Lama is a pretty cool guy. -
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Unsu...
Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Mon, August 18, 2008 - 9:44 PMI saw Kundun 5 or 6 times in the theater. Very powerful in spite of its flaws. -
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Thu, August 21, 2008 - 10:51 AMJust for a different spin on sexuality a la the Dalai Lama, there was of course the 6th Dalai Lama, who "enjoyed a lifestyle that included drinking, the company of women, and writing love songs...":
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsan...Dalai_Lama
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-...4073630.stm
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Re: What have the Chinese [in their Wisdom ! ! ] done?
Sat, August 23, 2008 - 12:50 AM<Will it really matter to you? ? >
Nope.