...which is obviously not really honesty (imo).
I've run into it a few times. Basically, it goes something like this:
"I don't like that you're doing this or that, and if you don't cut it out I'm leaving. Hey look, I'm just being honest with you."
Except that there doesn't really seem to be any intention to leave, it's just a poorly veiled threat/ ultimatum used to attempt to control someone's behavior. My ex did this regularly.
Seems to me that some folks just can't resist using "honesty" in this twisted way and I have no idea how to deal with it other than calling their bluff...which only creates more conflict. I had tried the open communication path, but when someone is so convinced that they're being "honest", even if/when their motives aren't in keeping with their words, it's just damn near impossible to navigate through it with any sort of open communication. At least, that's been my experience.
Anyone else here run into these "honesty whores"?
-K
I've run into it a few times. Basically, it goes something like this:
"I don't like that you're doing this or that, and if you don't cut it out I'm leaving. Hey look, I'm just being honest with you."
Except that there doesn't really seem to be any intention to leave, it's just a poorly veiled threat/ ultimatum used to attempt to control someone's behavior. My ex did this regularly.
Seems to me that some folks just can't resist using "honesty" in this twisted way and I have no idea how to deal with it other than calling their bluff...which only creates more conflict. I had tried the open communication path, but when someone is so convinced that they're being "honest", even if/when their motives aren't in keeping with their words, it's just damn near impossible to navigate through it with any sort of open communication. At least, that's been my experience.
Anyone else here run into these "honesty whores"?
-K
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Unsu...
Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Sun, March 2, 2008 - 2:04 PMSo friggin true sistar!! I have seen this before, and I am sorry to say it, but seems to be a stronger pattern in those who believe themselves to be very "spiritual" or "enlightened" in some way (this is from my relationship experience, but also my experience of counseling hundreds of women in relationships). You can call their bluff, but if they don't get it, they don't- and honestly my ex did this too, and the hardest thing was staying true to my intuition and not giving away my power. It's the most insidious of egoic mind games. It can even be subtle and hard to spot, but you KNOW something isn't right.
Someone who does this "regularly" as a habit, I have decided is not the type of person I want in my life at all. It's not an ego structure I am willing to live with, or play with. Unless you are absolutely in your power at all times, meaning you FULLY believe in your intuitive strength, it will be very hard not to become emotionally wounded or manipulated. Because usually the person keeps doing it, repeatedly, at first you don't agree, and you aren't sure if such a seemingly small "tiff" is worth leaving someone over. But if they persist, you get worn down, a little doubt comes in, "hmmm, maybe they are right, I should do these things differently anyway..." your sense of believing in yourself starts to crumble- and you are putty in their hands!
Perhaps another subject, but adding to what you are saying about using "false honesty," is using spiritual concepts to manipulate, or avoid the core of an issue.
So, after they have done this manipulation trip, and you don't feel good about it,
(your intuition, BEFORE the mind even comes in), and you try to express that, they say something like, "Yeah, well that's YOUR REFLECTION. We are all mirrors of each other, so if you see something wrong or manipulative with what I am saying, it means that there is something manipulative within you."
it's insanity, this type of deflection, and if any sister out there feel this, get out- get out while you can, before all your self esteem is lost.!
Blessings~~~~ -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 10:53 AMYeah I have seen this tripe as well, and like Nikki just plain have no time or energy for them.
My response litterally to the last person that told me the
"I have to be honest with you, I don't like you smoking and if you don't stop I am going to have to leave you"
Was don't let the door hit ya in the ass on your way out.
Since then I have quit smoking with the support of someone who did not tell me what to do or manipulate but rather gave me the space and support to do so <the Chantix also helped>
So yeah folks who pull that manipulative crap just go away in my life.
JSin -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 11:30 AMahh. not going to rant... not going to rant...
suffice to say: yeah. been there too.
I've met these people and been sucked in,
but i learned better (knock wood)...
fuck 'em all. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 12:26 PMOhhh yeah, these sorts pf people really just annoy the crap outta me. Honestly.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 2:54 PM-K, this used to be me. I actually believed myself too.
And it comes back to you if you live this way. The longer you do it the harder it is to kick the habit and even harder to earn trust again. Its a horrible way to live; nothing short of abusive. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 5:30 PMGood for you for being able to see that, Lloyd, and get to changing it. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 3:09 PMWell actually it just sucks I was like that in the first place. Upbringing? Lazy? Learned it from somebody? Who knows. I'm just glad I was able to open my eyes (be shown) to it and it finally sunk in...the reality.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 4:18 PMpassive/aggressive people who attack with their so-called honesty really get me.
i just can't bring myself to shoot them in the face for some reason. legalities or something.
so i hand them a mirror.
and tell them to have a nice day!
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 5:43 PMIf you don't like someone else's behavior, what is the appropriate way to let that person know what you think? -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 6:09 PMPoke them with a pointy stick and say" stop pissing me off!" -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 7:22 PMElaine >> Poke them with a pointy stick and say" stop pissing me off! <<
Ok. Should you then tell them that if they continue the behavior that is pissing you off, you will move on? Should you just move on without telling them? -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Wed, March 5, 2008 - 5:13 PM"Should you then tell them that if they continue the behavior that is pissing you off, you will move on? Should you just move on without telling them?"
I once heard that not returning a phone call was the most common way that female friendships ended. I think this can be mutual as it was for myself and someone I still like, but had just grown apart from. I must say that since hearing this ‘fact’ I’ve become over-sensitised to it. So if a friend doesn’t return my call with in a short period I think maybe they want to end the relationship. This happened a couple of years ago with one friend: I’d called her in a bit of distress over my neighbour (long story) and she was quite supportive etc but ended the call and said she’d call me back. Four weeks later and I still hadn’t heard from her. I made up lots of excuses for why she hadn’t rung because she did get sick quite often and had a lot of her own probs with family and stuff. Then a mutual friend said that he’d just been partying with her. I quizzed him that she’d been OK etc. He said she’d said she’d ‘Call me!‘
That pissed me off so much I snapped: “Tell her not to bother!” I saw her behaviour as discourteous and insensitive. And that there was no excuse for it… I’d supported her through heaps of woes and then when I needed her help she wasn’t there…I must say the mutual friend thought I was being a bitch, but from my point of view she’d been the bitch. I was just the one calling it.
I do miss her and wonder if I acted precipitously…but think not
Anyway I tried to google to see what’s out there on the phenomenon and didn’t find much. I did find this, though, which I though added some more insight into the politics and social meanings of calling - or not calling!
It is tellingly titled: Show Respect For Your Relationships. (It’s a sales tip site, but still some insights there)
Return Phone Calls
In Jeffrey Gitomer’s book: The Sales Bible, the author talked to thousands of salespeople and simply asked them what they wished buyers and prospects would do (or not do). The number one gripe of salespeople: Return my phone call. Salespeople are not alone in wanting to have their calls returned. All of us do.
Think about it. How hard is it to return a call? When you don’t return phone calls people are left to wonder why. They may imagine that you are busy, or that you are involved in other things, or that their call is just not important enough for you to return in a timely manner. It is important to remember that uncertainties resulting from calls not being returned can erode even the best of relationships.
www.diversityinbusiness.com/dib2...t.htm
So I think that it can show a lack of respect and conveys that you are not important enough to the person to show basic courtesy. -
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Unsu...
Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Wed, March 5, 2008 - 9:39 PM>So I think that it can show a lack of respect and conveys that you are not important enough to the person to show basic courtesy.<
To me this is a perfect example of passive-aggressive tactics, not calling someone. The trouble with it - like all PA tactics - is that it can be excused (legitimately or not) in so many ways. Look how it made Thirty Nine feel 'pissed' but her own friend thought that Thirty Nine was the bitch in the situation. Neat trick, eh? And it seems Thirty Nine still has doubts about whether she overreacted to the situation. I mean, we all forget to call our friends or mean to get around to it, don't we? So what to do? I'll call them a couple of times and see what happens. If it's a bunch of excuses why they can't talk or see me, toodleoo! If we end up hanging out or chatting on the phone, I'll just put them down to one of my hairbrained or overwhelmed friends. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Wed, March 5, 2008 - 10:47 PM"To me this is a perfect example of passive-aggressive tactics, not calling someone. "
Fido - right on! I interpreted it as PA and explained that to my other friend. After I posted I recalled that in fact she did exactly the same thing to him eventually and now they are not talking either! So, I think he gets it now. :-)
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 6:45 AMFIDO - "I mean, we all forget to call our friends or mean to get around to it, don't we? So what to do? I'll call them a couple of times and see what happens. If it's a bunch of excuses why they can't talk or see me, toodleoo! If we end up hanging out or chatting on the phone, I'll just put them down to one of my hairbrained or overwhelmed friends."
I find asking people directly if they're avoiding me for some reason works quite well. If I can't be open and honest with someone about my thoughts and feelings, I wouldn't actually consider them a friend. And why would I expect someone to be honest and direct with me if I'm not being honest and direct with them? The reality is that most people - even including those who love us - are more busy thinking about themselves than anyone else. (The fact that we're discussing the feelings of the person not being called back or whose calls are being ignored without considering the perspective of the person who isn't answering the phone or calling back - meaning we're only looking at one side rather than the dynamic of the relationship between two people as a whole - kind of proves this "it's all about me" tendency...I'm not making a value judgment here or criticizing anyone, I just wanted to point out something that seems kind of obvious about humans). Just because we perceive someone ignoring us as an act of aggression (because we feel hurt or let down or whatever) it doesn't mean the person is actively or passively being aggressive - they may well just be thinking about themselves not us. And if we could stop thinking about ourselves long enough to realize this and get on with our own lives, the world would be a much less sulky place. (Now...sulking...there's an act of passive aggression.) -
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Unsu...
Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 10:58 AM>I find asking people directly if they're avoiding me for some reason works quite well. If I can't be open and honest with someone about my >thoughts and feelings, I wouldn't actually consider them a friend.<
Good point, but I find that the kind of people who forget to call you intentionally will lie when asked directly. Unless you are a human lie detector (I used to think I was, now I don't trust myself in that regard) you are back at square zero. I also agree that most people spend most of their time worrying about themselves. Of course my method requires interpretation also, but being a person who is more inclined to believe actions vs. words (going to a party with me vs. "I was just too busy to call, of course you are my best buddy.") it is my prefered method and thus I presented it.
I also agree that it is up to the individual to interpret the meaning of all communication, but the intention of the communication is just as important. If I don't call you because I am a genuinely forgetful/busy/scatterbrained and you interpret it as passive aggression that is no more wrong than if I hate you because I found out you slept with my girlfriend, am not the type to fight you face to face, so I quit calling you and tell you that it's because I'm busy, and you believe me. Again, it's the message's meaning that is formed by intention and interpretation, dishonesty in either makes the whole transaction. I prefer to look for honesty of actions because I have been fooled by words; especially when I really thought I could tell when someone was lying. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 11:11 AMFIDO - "being a person who is more inclined to believe actions vs. words (going to a party with me vs. "I was just too busy to call, of course you are my best buddy.") it is my prefered method and thus I presented it."
Oh, for sure regarding actions. I don't really consider people my friends until I know them and by then I have a pretty accurate idea of what their "tells" are - acquaintances are another ballgame of course. I also think it's important to communicate our expectations, otherwise we're expecting people to magically know and/or understand what our personal rules and preferences are regarding friendship. Eh, if someone slept with my girlfriend I'd think it would be pretty obvious why I wasn't calling them back! Be kind of stating the obvious (not to mention silly) to call them to say "I'm not going to speak to you because you slept with my girlfriend". Why the hell would one bother lying to "make nice" in such a situation? Seems kinda dishonest to me. The conflict already exists (you slept with my girlfriend, I think you both suck and don't want anything to do with you, we've broken up as friends), what purpose does pretending it doesn't exist serve really?
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 12:28 PMGood point, but I find that the kind of people who forget to call you intentionally will lie when asked directly. Unless you are a human lie detector (I used to think I was, now I don't trust myself in that regard) you are back at square zero.<<<
True, and there are some very good liars out there.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 12:49 PMor...they won't even bother to lie, ingnore your question completely and attack you with some other thing that has no bearing on what was the reason for conversing in the first place.
then you're left with that "WTF???" feeling.
that's when i walk away.
i have no lie detector skills any more either. usually, though, the offender will trip up and be "foist on their own petard." -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 12:53 PMI think sometimes you have a be a good liar to detect a good liar.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 1:23 PMi think, therein lies my problem. i never learned how to lie. !
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Re: Not returning calls
Wed, March 5, 2008 - 10:55 PMAnother example I thought of was from that book: He's Just Not That Into You.
Why doesn't he call me? Cause he's just not that into you. Silence can say plenty. It came out round the time I had this issue and i also felt: She's just not that into me.
C'est la vie.
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stop pissing me off!
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 8:26 PM<<stop pissing me off!>> implies a passive responsibility for emotions.. that others are responsible for the way you feel..and in turn it implies that one can be responsible for the way others feel.
I point this out, not to single out the author, but just to illustrate the point and suggestion... to take control of our emotions..take responsibility for them.. it will make you feel better and others as well.. more clarity will follow..
Imagine a world where each person is reposible to how they feel and how they react to those feelings.. instead of pointing to others..
a world where we are not responsible to the emotions others have around us..
what a wonderful world that would be!
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 9:55 PMwait, do y'all think elaine was serious? elaine, were you serious? am i seriously thick? i coulda sworn that smacked of a joke . . . -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Mon, March 3, 2008 - 11:42 PMYes, I really do think using sharp wooden things to poke people when they don't do something I find acceptable to be proper and mature adult behavior. Worked when I was in fifth grade, why wouldn't it work now?
Of course, it was a joke. Lordy.
The serious answer - It all depends in what the particular person is doing. It also depends on how well you know another, how good you are at expressing feelings ( using the "I" statements and such like) and how the other person is able to receive it.
We all have our breaking point or limits to what we can stand or are willing to deal with in a friend or partner. It is okay to stick to them, if you really think it is important. There are ways to be honest without resorting to passive aggressiveness, manipulation or bullying. It is very possible to be able to say what you need to say in a calm and collected way, being prepared to stand on your principals if need be, but also being prepared ( depending on the sitch) to compromise, explain further, and listen.
As for when you have spoken and the dealio hasn't changed ( for the better) than well.. it's up to you to decide whether to tell someone why you are walking or to just do the fade away into the woodwork.
Me, being the cold hearted, self centered uncaring biznatch that I am, tend to just wander off, leaving the person to wonder what they did wrong and never telling them why. A very subtle invisible pointy stick of such sharpmess it may take them years to figure out they got themselves poked by Elaine's Bitch Stick. Weeee!
Of course, your mileage may vary.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 7:06 AMElaine~ Good answers (serious and otherwise). I'd kinda think that not having a sense of humor might just put someone into the "not so good at communicating" camp. Obviously there's a bit of a difference between expressing our needs and limitations to someone and asking for accommodation (hey, we're the one that can't handle something, no matter how antisocial our partner's booger eating would be considered generally) and "honestly" telling someone else what's "wrong" with them and how they need to change to suit our desires because our needs trump theirs. The first is actually honest and leaves room to negotiate a solution that's can work for both people, the second is controlling and seeks a solution through emotional blackmail (which is passive aggressive because it's a threat designed to control passively, even though it can *feel* just flat out aggressive). Beside, someone's "honest" opinion is still just an opinion - personal likes or dislikes are hardly a universal truth or a fact (or even universal, one man's fetish is another man's horror). One commonly associated tactic is to say "and so and so all agree with me that this is wrong about you" as a means to try to portray personal opinion as fact. Pointy sticks usually don't get through to these kinds of people (and they often try to keep one engaged in further tedious ongoing discussions about why and how you're "wrong" and they're "right" even after being told to go away because you just don't care what they think).
Now where did I put that ten foot pole I use for annoying strangers.... it may just need a sharpening...
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 11:10 AMElaine >> Me, being the cold hearted, self centered uncaring biznatch that I am, tend to just wander off, <<
Removing oneself from a situation that is not to one's liking seems eminently reasonable to me, no explanation required. I don't see it as particularly cold-hearted, more along the lines of neutral. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 4:41 PMEssentially discarding someone suddenly and silently is far from 'neutral'. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 6:07 PMOh good lord, people.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Wed, March 12, 2008 - 9:08 AMspyder >> Essentially discarding someone suddenly and silently is far from 'neutral'. <<
Interesting.
I don't see "Removing oneself from a situation that is not to one's liking" to be the same as "discarding". If I were to describe the situation as discarding, I suspect I would be more likely to label it non-neutral. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 5:06 PM>>>"Removing oneself from a situation that is not to one's liking"<<< sounds like a euphemistic way of saying it's perfectly fine to "just wander off, leaving the person to wonder what they did wrong and never telling them why." That statement acknowledges that what we do often has an effect on other people, and ignoring that effect or having no consideration for other people's feelings is not neutral. Not caring is not always the same as neutral.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 10:10 AMWell, it depends on the behavior, doesn't it?
If they say, " If you don't stop beating the kids, stealing my credit card, fucking the neighbors and leaving your socks on the floor, I'm leaving", that seems fairly legit to me.
If you're disappointed when they don't follow through, that's an entirely different matter. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 10:50 AMS.A. - "If they say, " If you don't stop beating the kids, stealing my credit card, fucking the neighbors and leaving your socks on the floor, I'm leaving", that seems fairly legit to me."
Agreed. I think it's legit to bring up any issue in a relationship for discussion, and to leave if you want for whatever reason. But then I'm into personal freedom and responsibility and see relationships as a negotiation of needs and desires, an agreement rather than an obligation. It's just as dishonest to frame leaving as "you're forcing me to leave" when it's a choice, as it is to idly threaten to leave as a means to manipulate a friend or partner into doing what we want. The other person's behavior may be problematic but it's always our choice to stay or leave, just as it's their choice whether to change their behavior or not. Of course, expecting kid beating, credit card stealing, neighbor fucking, sock leaving partners or friends to change is just begging for punishment and a good sign that you may need to obtain a stick and start sharpening.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 10:17 AMJust for kicks, I looked up the definition of honest:
hon·est /ˈɒnɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[on-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. honorable in principles, intentions, and actions; upright and fair: an honest person.
2. showing uprightness and fairness: honest dealings.
3. gained or obtained fairly: honest wealth.
4. sincere; frank: an honest face.
5. genuine or unadulterated: honest commodities.
6. respectable; having a good reputation: an honest name.
7. truthful or creditable: honest weights.
8. humble, plain, or unadorned.
9. Archaic. chaste; virtuous.
Seems like manipulations and honesty cannot be synonymous. Back in the day, I used to know tons of people, they were almost cultish about their 'brutal honesty' which was far more brutal than honest. Eventually, it bites them in the ass when they offend and the same tactic is used on them. Nowadays, I don't have the energy for heart to heart growth session with manipulating persons. I just move on. If they are someone that is permanently in my life, say a family member, I just ignore it. They clearly have problems that have nothing to do with me and I have shit to do. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 11:05 AMquel - Well said. I've found that most people who trade in "brutal honesty" are really only into the brutal part, it's merely a cover for being mean while trying to claim some sort of higher ground or moral superiority. Now, this isn't to say that sometimes in the heat of arguments that hard truths don't come out in mean ways intend to be hurtful. Or that the truth, a fact *or* someone's honest opinion can't sometimes be hard to hear. However, if we actually care about someone there are certainly ways to broach even the hardest topics and say the most uncomfortable things in ways that are as considerate as possible. Besides, I've found it's as simple as asking someone "do you really want to hear my thoughts on this subject 'cause you may not like them?" if you're not sure they're open to hearing what you have to say. If they're in denial about an aspect of their behavior, it's not like they're going to listen to "brutal honesty" that's forced onto them anyway so the need to be "brutally honest" really is all about the person being brutal. Or so it seems to me.
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 3:29 PM>>>see quel post with definition of honesty
ok - id take defns 3 thru 7, quibble with the word synonymous (idve chosen harmonious) - and argue that honesty and manipulation are two separate things.
ive used honesty to socially manipulate.
ive used honesty to break apart manipulative tactics (in myself and others).
ive manipulated without honesty.
ive been unmanipulative without honesty too. (altho im struggling for an example - maybe not this one - but it bothers me that i cant justify all four possibilities... lol)
im human. i dont consider myself "evolved", and i wonder what the weird association with evolved-humans and manipulative-honesty was all about earlier... im not gonna look it up, but im pretty sure that manipulation (physically with thumbs, if not socially) is characteristically human (or evolved-primate. lol). im again, unsure, what is so horrible about manipulation - i thought we do it all the time (and it is done to us as well). heck, ive watched my friends with kids - and manipulation is one of their (kids) keys to survival if you ask me. honesty - if it is valued - can also be a key to survival.
there are many keys, there are many doors, there are many definitions of survival... ok - im babbling now...
i just dont see what made the OP (and others) so disturbed by honesty being used in a manipulative fashion. i dislike being manipulated, sure, but that is independent of whether it is done using honesty or not... in those cases, honesty is just a tool. it is a shame to USE the tool (honesty) for that task (manipulation), but im not angry about it... im usually just disturbed by the manipulation itself...
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 6:50 AMInteresting...
We appear to have two camps:
On the one hand, there are those who consider sharing what I will call "deal breakers" with another to be manipulative or controlling.
On the other, those who feel that not sharing that would be disrespectful or passive / aggressive.
I wonder what personal qualities might tend to put a person in one camp versus the other. -
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Re: Using "honesty" as a manipulative tactic
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 7:30 AMsaddha - So it appears to *you*...
I don't see people divided into "two camps", I see a variety of opinions on the subject at hand. I also dont' see people saying that sharing "deal breakers" is manipulative or controlling per se.
What's up with wanting to put everyone in "camps" anyway? Will you require that we all wear labels you assign as well?
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