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Is it, or is it not fucked up for your boyfriend/girlfriend/partner/whatever to tell you, when you are sick, that they "don't feel like being nurturing" and express a desire to leave you alone? Assume that they have given you a minimum of help during your illness so far, ie brought you tea, hung out for a bit just sharing space, not actively checking on you, then left? And not really checked on you since then except to shoot you a Facebook message saying, "Hope you're feeling better."
Completely hypothetical, of course.
Completely hypothetical, of course.
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SF Bay Area
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Wed, October 29, 2008 - 9:32 PMI'm thinking it would depend upon how sick the sickee was, how needy or whiney the sickee is when sick, how grumpy the partner is feeling and whether or not it is worth it to deal with that person when they are in that type of mood. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Wed, October 29, 2008 - 10:38 PMbingo - depends...
boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever - even needs to be elucidated... since we are talking facebook-messages, i assume that this hypothetical-example could use the following hypothetical-advice: you have learned something from this experience today... what it _IS_ that you have learned, is up to you... whether you would like to share this newfound knowledge and/or thoughts with your b/g-friend is ALSO up to you...
gl, h. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Wed, October 29, 2008 - 11:51 PMI would take that as something to be duly noted and kept in the bakc of my mind as a possible sign of character. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 12:36 AMI have an ex who used to gladly accept TLC when he was down, but when it was time to reciprocate he copped the "Hey, you know I'm not a nurturing guy" attitude. Yes... he's an EX. Not for that reason, of course, but as Elaine said, it's an indicator of character. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 3:15 AM"I don't feel like being nurturing" belongs for me into the same category with "Boys will be boys", "Men cannot learn how to wash dishes", "I could not help myself, I f...d her", and "That is just the way I am, cannot change myself. If you have any complaints about that, that is your problem."
My possible answer would be:"Well, I do not feel like being patient, loving and forgiving to you, either, I am sick, after all, and anyway, I am neither superwoman nor a door mat, so get lost and may the door hit you on your way out." (the last bit I stole from Darren talking about the whiners who left tribe) -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 3:24 AMAnd by the way, in my humble opinion, the invention of mobile phones, messenger service with blocking functions, facebook and such has really screwed up the way people are dealing with relationships and their level of tolerance and commitment.
Sending you a dumb facebook message when you are sick is one thing, sending out an msn message saying"My friend, I am online, you can talk to me now. I miss you", to a lover one met a few weeks ago is another, esp. if that message looks suspiciously like a copy and paste job sent out to 25 different addresses, and it may be answered with:"I miss you too. Do you still remember my name?" Just an exemple of what I hate about this. If you want to know more just read the help page for msn messenger. "She will never know you blocked her. You can unblock her and it will appear as though you just signed in", and so on. Is it the same on facebook chat? -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 3:54 AMTo me, it sounds like a red flag. Maybe not a dealbreaker, but a sure sign of Big Trouble ahead. Kind of like the roar of a distant waterfall as you're floating down the river in an inflatable raft...
If it were my lover, I would suspect some passive-aggressive anger there - is your lover pissed that you're sick and unable to take care of THEM? is your lover pissed about something else? Why is your lover acting this self-involved? Is it your job to crawl sniffling and aching out of the comfort of your bed to beg them to be honest with you in an IM? oy.
In my relatively limited experience, this kind of behavior = "I am angry about something, and I'm going to show it in much the same way a dog would: by widdling on the floor of the house of our relationship."
Maybe I"ve dated too many dogs. :-)
(figuratively speaking, of course.)
Then again, maybe your being sick has frightened them. Seeing you in a vulnerable state might make them afraid somehow. I'm not talking catastrophe - perhaps just that there is need there, and your lover has realized that they are not prepared to meet any needs other than their own. To me, though, this is just as much a red flag as passive-pissiness. If your lover isn't prepared to be an active and equal partner in situations like this, are they ultimately a good match for you? Maybe it's something you can live with; for myself, I'm pretty serious about the "in sickness and in health" part. But we all have our different definitions of dealbreakers.
Either way, your lover's behavior speaks of either an inability to express emotion (I suspect anger or fear) or a level of self-involvedness that reeks of immaturity. I have a friend who, lord help her, quotes Dr. Laura (*shudder*) (who is probably quoting someone wiser and more sane than herself): "You know you're ready for a serious relationship when your ability to love is greater than your need to be loved." So your lover's actions today show me that either you're looking at a potentially long road of raising them into the kind of person you WANT to be in a relationship with, or maybe it's time to move on and let someone else parent them.
Either way, I hope you feel better soon! It sucks to be sick and have to make your own tea. :-) -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 3:56 AMheh. i just realized that i said in five paragraphs what everyone else has said in a few sentences. so...yeah. what they said! esp. to Astrid (and by extension Darren)! -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 5:32 AMactually - youve said quite-a-bit-more in your 5 paragraphs... it is the nature of projection... sometimes it is useful to look at what we "project out" when given the opportunity to do so...
i already "know" that i am/can-be a racist/sexist/chauvanistic pig. im not saying i cannot change (tho i _might_ be saying i do not want to), but at least im aware... -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 5:46 AMegads - now i feel the need to qualify everything im saying here...
magpie, i am NOT trying to pick on you. the original-post (and poster) was fairly ambiguous about the situation. the assumptions that any-of-us would make with this amiguity reveal more about ourselves than they do about the hypothetical-situation...
for instance, just the idea that your summation of possibilities was an either-or proposition speaks to a simple-binary thinking that you were using... binary or good/bad or black/white thinking is not the way that reality truly exists. (imo) we do not know if maybe this hypothetical interaction took place while the ostensible-lover was dealing with a dying-grandmother (for instance)... do the circumstances (as they are revealed) change your opinions? hopefully they do (again, imo)...
in the end, barring the other-party coming into the room to tell-his/her-side, we will only get a one-sided perspective anyways... should we be making judgment calls based upon only one-side of a story? taking it to the extreme... should we be able to EVER make judgment calls since it is nigh-impossible to know all the details?
there is a myers-brigg personality-test that has four-axes of personality traits... (if im remembering correctly, i do not feel like looking it up right now) one of those axes is J-P. specifically, you can lean more towards judging outside (of yourself) issues or perceiving things... _I_ almost always lean more towards the perceiving, rather than the judging... maybe you are more on the judging-side...
ok, that is what i was trying to express - namely that you could learn all sorts of things about someone by what they project... are they optimists? judgmental? whatever... and that knowledge might be independent of the initial-issue (is the lover a jerk - yes/no) completely. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 8:15 AMNo. I just have high standards for my relationships, born of enough trial and error over the years where I know what I'm looking for (which, as I pointed out in my post, may well be different from what others are seeking). Luckily, I have a wonderful partner who knows the value of taking care of each other. As I have already stated, people have different criteria for what constitutes crumbs-in-the-bed. The fact that the poster posted clearly indicates that they have similar standards.
I think your definition of "judging" is skewed in terms of what Myers and Briggs meant. And in fact I have most often scored an INFP, though in the six times I've taken the test, my scores have varied drastically.
I think the poster was righteously pissed off and was looking for validation of their feelings. I don't consider that to be particularly ambiguous.
If you disagree with the assessment of the poster's lover's immaturity, feel free. But don't play armchair psychologist with me. This thread is not about magpie.
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Unsu...
Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 5:42 AMI will admit. I am that asshole. I hate sick people. I hate whiners. I am THE WORST person to be around when you're sick because unless you are bleeding to death (in which case I would probably poke at the wound) I really won't have anything to do with you until you are well again. No tea. No chicken soup. No hanging of the out. You won't even get Facebook from me. I go to my end of the house and close the doors and hope you win. Keep your cooties to yourself. Fortunately, everyone that knows me, knows this, and doesn't expect much. And don't even get me started on hospitals... Aint happenin'...
Inversely, when I am sick, let me the hell alone. I can vomit on my own.
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 8:29 AMWhat all'a' these guys (except Ghost) said.
Here's the thing: Regardless of WHY that person doesn't feel nurturing, it's bullshit that he or she doesn't.
-"I understand you're miserable but seeing you like this freaks me out and I can't deal with it." Well fuck you. My being sick, and miserable, and needing some TLC should outweigh your discomfort caused by it. This sounds selfish, and perhaps it is, but what good is your SO if you cannot lean on them when you're weak?
-"I kind of find you irritating when you're all sick and whiny." Well fuck you. I find YOU irritating when you're all sick and whiny but I do my damnedest to do what I can to alleviate it. What good is your SO if you cannot lean on them when you're weak?
-"I have my own serious life issues to deal with right now and I just can't add you to that list." Well fuck you. Just because I'm sick doesn't mean we can't take care of each other in our collective time of need. Does getting me NyQuil and orange juice really break your fucking emotional bank? What good is your SO if you cannot lean on them when you're weak?
-"I don't have the juevos to say it, but I don't like you all that much and seeing you in this pathetic state isn't making things better." Well fuck you. Beat it and don't ever return: I'm better off being sick and not having to deal with your shitty attitude and disrespect. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 8:55 AMyeah, pretty much. What good is your SO if you cannot lean on them when you're weak?
(although, to Ghost: I hear you about the vomiting thing. That's somehow different - active explosive emission of bodily fluids - with obvious exceptions - excuses any other human presence for me, as well. And at least you're up front about your squeamishness.) -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 9:07 AMi'm with Yoonee on this one.
i have no problem taking care of sick people, be it my SO, family, friends,
etc etc etc. But that's my disposition. And even then, when said sick person
is snarky and difficult and ungrateful i'm more inclined to do what i can and
then not offer to them a second time.
i'm a *terrible* sick person. while i'm not whiny by nature, i get sick so rarely
that i don't seem to have developed much capacity to deal with it gracefully.
i'll whine and moan and get frustrated for the first couple days - and i know it -
which is why i will say to people "i'm not feeling well, you might want to just
leave me alone for a couple days." some decide to help anyways, and i do my
best to curb the attitude and show them how much i appreciate it.
i think it boils down to tolerance and patience.
if it's a generally patient, kind, nurturing person who decides they don't want
to extend that same sentiment when their SO is sick, there's probably a reason...
be it not wanting to get sick themselves, not having the patience, or just not
knowing what to *do* with a sick person.
keep it in mind. maybe even go so far as to ask why, later on - my general belief
is that it's always better to go to the source with direct questions than to speculate.
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 10:39 AM>>>The fact that the poster posted clearly indicates that they have similar standards.
uh, it does? let me ask, since the original poster has not reentered the scene... "what are YOUR [op] expectations for this hypothetical example?"
idk, some semi-random boy/girl-friend that i know thru facebook does _not_ an SO make, to me... hell, it appeared to me that they were still in the mid-to-beginning dating stages... clearly they do not know each other very well yet... everything depends...
in fact, if the OP cares to, they could actually answer the yes/no jerk-question for themselves... rather than leaving the query hanging out there for us to confirm/deny/decide. i _could_ read into the post that the "SO" was a jerk, but that is not a given... and even if it was a given, what has the OP learned? (and yes, i know im using OP for the person this time, rather than the post-itself... thats just a hazard of acronyms)
without more information from the OP, it really just depends... bleah...
btw - even vomit depends upon context... i had a friend (female) who absolutely could not stand vomit - she feared it to the point where if she _suspected_ that someone was going to hurl _in a movie_ then she would shy-away... she had her first child, learned to deal with it (not saying she enjoyed it), and now is basically fine/normal about it... (altho, to be fair, she dislikes it a lot with adults still, but she no longer runs from the room shrieking...) everything really depends... -
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 11:31 AMI admit to being a challenging sick person.
However, I reimburse any and all attention given to me while sick by being there for you when you are sick. If you vomit, I shall vomit with you. If you need to be cleaned up, then I will do that, but then I will go vomit. Having had to clean people up from their bodily fluids and solids, I will admit it is definitely the down side to relationships and friendships. However, I will do it cause I love you. But then I go vomit.
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 11:34 AMYou are making me queasy, E.
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 11:35 AM@Elaine: I am LOLing. And possibly ROFLing. :-D
Ah, for the halcyon days of the vomitoria... -
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 11:39 AMhaha
i spent last weekend on the bathroom floor, holding hands
with my man while we took turns puking for a full 24 hours
of food poisoning nightmarishness.
if that's not love, i don't know what is.
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 11:42 AM>>Ah, for the halcyon days of the vomitoria...<<
Unfortunately, even though we would like it to be otherwise, vomitoria doesn't really mean what it sounds like. A vomitorium wasn't a place for the ancient Romans to barf; it was passage out of a stadium through which attendees can "spew out" at the end of a performance. -
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 12:39 PM<<A vomitorium wasn't a place for the ancient Romans to barf>>
Well, if someone puked in front of Elainus and FiFius, it would swiftly turn into one. -
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 12:41 PMAnne, as my friend you are required to hold my hair when I do vomit. Anything less is a major strike upon your character. -
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 12:47 PMLet me take this opportunity, then, to suggest that you would look incredibly cute with a short haircut. -
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 1:21 PMI can't help but compare my two husbands when I think of this scenario. My first husband was a giant whiney baby when he was sick. Couldn't even place his own snot tissues in the trash bin. He would act like a cold was the bubonic plague and it got sooo tiresome when I tried to take care of him because the more I did the whinier and more demanding he would become. And if I said something like, "look you are going to have to pick up your own snot tissues." he would get all dramatic and say shit like "what if I was crippled in an accident would you not empty my bed pan because it grossed you out!" Yeah really, he was that fucking dramatic. Conversely I could not at all count on him to do shit even if I was bleeding and needed him to get a bandaid. He'd go on about how blood made him queasy and I was just going to have to handle it myself. Really it just made me want to stay the hell away from him when he was sick.
My current husband and I both like a bit of nurturing when sick but neither one of us really asks for much. We both love to have a cup of tea brought to us and maybe some soup but then after that we get the sleep that we need and move forward. He can be a tad bit more likely to nurse a cold than I am but even if he decides he must stay in bed all day he doesn't act like a whiney childman so it is never a bother to bring him things and nurture him. And I know when I need it he feels the same way.
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 11:46 AMWell, its true. I am a sympathy vomiter, always ready to share in the experience with you. Whether you like it or not.
However, I can not make myself purge to save my life.
My BF pretty much saved my life once when I was sick with the flu. ( the real flu, not the really bad cold everyone calls the flu) I hadn't left my bed in three days to eat, drink, anything, with a 101 degree temperature. I could barely;y move, much less call for any sort of help. He wasn't my bf even then, but he pretty much broke into my apartment with groceries, made me eat soup and drink a bunch of water and medicine, and helped me go to the bathroom as I was literally too weak to walk three feet on my own.
I looked, smelled and acted awful. I screamed at him for some reason, and he laughed.
Then he put me to back to bed after awhile..He came over every day for the next few days until I was able to fend for myself. Even then he checked in with me everyday.
. And that flu was a bastard, took me a month to recover and I am usually very healthy.
So, I duly noted this particular character trait of his.
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Re: literary vomit
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 11:56 AMHeh, I was just about to post about being a "empathy vomiter"! Sympathy vomiter is a better way to phrase it though.
Anyone who can't look after you when sick isn't a keeper in my books (and I'm not even that into being coddled when sick, though I'm happy to bring someone books, tea and medicine). If they can't deal with the flu it means that they'll leave for sure if you lose your legs or looks!
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 8:44 AMI second Elaine's "keep in mind for future reference" and, if you find this kind of thing annoying, take it as a strike against this person as being a potential keeper. Now that your eyes have been opened to who this person is (no need to make it good or bad since it's really just about what works or doesn't for you and them), keep them open for other signs that this person really just doesn't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Of course, how important this is really depends on whether you're in a relationship where there's reasonable expectation of caring behavior and reciprocal nurturing. And, if you don't really know this person yet and aren't in a committed relationship then expecting them to be useful and engaged when you're sick may be asking for a greater intimacy than yet exists in the relationship. Some people are really freaked out about illness too but that doesn't bode well for the future if you prefer to be looked after when sick (not everyone does, some people prefer to be alone).
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 12:26 PMi think it's fucked up. plain & simple.
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 2:06 PMThanks everybody for all of your responses. I really appreciate the time you've taken to answer this question.
The first questions Yoonee brought up are definitely important I think (how sick? how needy/whiny? how grumpy is partner?) In case you are curious,
(And yes, here in extreme honesty I totally lied and said it was hypothetical - is sarcasm considered lying?)
1. How sick - not sick enough that I needed constant attention/cleanup/soothing, but more like a "Fuck, something could really be wrong with me and I need to get the lab results back" kind of sick. And I'm worried and going to need to talk about it.
2. How needy/whiny? - In my best estimation, not terribly needy or whiny . . . mostly getting a little needier/whinier after feeling like I didn't get the attention I needed or deserved (dangerous word alert!) upon sharing that I actually had to get testing done for some things. As far as I can tell, I am not the neediest/whiniest. I've been worse about it in the past but have toughened up a bit. I am definitely not one of those people who wants to hide in a cave until better either, I do need some support. But I would never ask someone to pick up my snotrags a la Yoonee's ex!
3. How grumpy? - I think the question here, as touched on by other commenters, is how self-absorbed? Here I am talking about how my doctor thinks I need to get tested for thyroid issues, and homie is focused on a house he wants to rent. Like, online, trying to show me the google map. I'm like, seriously, is it asking too much to focus on me for a minute? When I act a little grouchy at not getting attention, he's out the door. Wonderful.
Yeah, definitely tells me something about his character. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 2:22 PMHey, Mammut, you okay now? Everything turn out all right? -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 2:36 PMI'm okay. Waiting on lab results to find out about two seemingly different issues I've been having, which may or may not be related. Still pissed at the dude, haven't had an apology, don't expect one.
Thanks. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 2:47 PM((((( Mammut )))))
yeah... it's something important and you need not just to be cared for
but some fuckin availability and support - it's the lack of THOSE that
really makes me think it's a character issue, more than anything else.
next time you see him, kick him in the shins.
then say 'i hope that gets better' and walk away. ;) -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 2:55 PM((((((( Mammut )))))))
i don't think there's anything i can tell you that you don't already know. -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 3:01 PMRa Ra Ree! Kick him in the Knee!
Ra Ra Rass! Kick him in the Other Knee!
(joking. I practice non-violence. After all, practice makes perfect...;-) ) -
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Fri, October 31, 2008 - 11:51 AMfuck all that kicking & not kicking.
cough in his face.
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Re: Question re: romantic relationships
Thu, October 30, 2008 - 5:52 PMIn the case of something could be really wrong and you need lab results then the partner who doesn't feel like being there is just being a selfish jackass. It is one thing to pass on babying a cold but turning away when something serious may be happening is a dick move.
I hope you are well.
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