so what about when you TRULY think someone is ugly? or evil, or an asshole, or anything like that, when did we become a society that beleives that all negativity is BAD? WTF is up with that? what about when if you DONT tell someone that such and so is evil or is ugly or an asshole ? HAve we forgoten how much harm comes when everyone beleives everything is unicorns and rainbows? my god, the world we live in is NUTS and i thikn its about damn time we stopped feeling so damn PC and SAID so. im not condoning complaining or giving license to complainers , im just saying maybe we should realy trhink about what honesty means and call it like we see it, so far, the world looks to me like its going down the shitter, or rather AMerica is. just mho
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Orlando
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Re: when honest IS negative
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 3:50 PMI'm not entirely sure what you're asking but let me take a shot at this.
Three thoughts about your post came to mind:
1. I can think ugly people are ugly without saying a damn thing to them. That's not dishonesty, it's respect and/or compassion.
2. PC bullshit makes people stupider. No child left behind, vertically challenged, saying "no longer with the company" instead of "fired", etc. etc. just make everything doubleplus the same. There was a time when we were to far from this and we treated each other poorly. Now the pendulum has come all the way to the other side.
3. Do not confuse PC bullshit with the aforementioned compassion/respect. -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 3:53 PMnicely put.
i want Josh on my team. -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 4:52 PMoh hey, this is the place where you are not required to be PC. (Although . . . you are not required to do a tasmanian devil imitation either.)
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 3:58 AM<<i want Josh on my team. >>
Hehee - me too :)
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Re: when honest IS negative
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 4:55 PMI too, must admit disillusionment with th idea that pointing out the obvious BS is 'being negative'. On the othe hand, we all have seen and experienced people going off the deep end with 'honesty' as well. There's certainly a middle ground where we can call it like we see it and still have some amount of integrity about it. Let's face it, sometimes people need to be called out. Sometimes issues need to be brough to the forefront, but if we don't make sure to do it in an intelligent way, we leave fissures in our argument that others can use to split it apart and nothing gets accomplished.
I like a healthy amount of cynicism because there is absolute justification for having some. We just have to be careful not to become what we are reacting to. -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 5:45 AM"Let's face it, sometimes people need to be called out."
EXACTLY!! im just so sick and tired of everything always having a damn positive spin on it that no one can tell whether its honesty or bullshit anymore. personaly, i try to call em like i sees em, but im sick of hearing that im a heartless bastard cuz ive hurt someones feelings even when the alternative was serious physical damage to another person, people are just too damn sensitive anymore these days IMO.
later i think ill rant about this in my blog, ill have to work up a good head of steam first though, its likely to be long one. lol.
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 3:59 AMI think you can be honest without being an arsehole..
The point is - it is not what you say - but how you say it.
I'll give you an example...
Recently I e-mailed a friend and asked to go out for coffee. She basically said she has no time for me but twice said "its not personal". Frankly I was a bit hurt, and I think it was a reasonable expectation I would take it personally and her twice stating "it's not personal" displayed the fact that she anticipated I might be hurt - but really, what she was saying was that her husband, children and job were higher priorities than I. Upon reflection it was totally reasonable and in fact I think it is good - but is was the way she said it to me that hurt.
<<so what about when you TRULY think someone is ugly?>>
The effect of saying "you are an ugly brute" instead of "I am not attracted to you" or indeed :I dont find you attractive" will be very different to the listener.
I don't think it is a simple question being or nor being "PC" - but it is all about how you deliver your honesty to others AND also how you react to others honesty that makes the difference. -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 6:45 AMSo Bloke, I gotta ask. Are you still upset about the way she said it or are you over that and perhaps giving her a pass because she obviously has a lot going on? Not to target you but I ask because I think this is the kind of thing where a lot of issues come up with folks. Some people would let it go even if they felt hurt because they would see that despite her sloppy delivery her intention was to let you know that she doesn't want you to take it personally and she is obviously really busy. While others would hold onto the idea of feeling hurt and let that escalate into some other kind of drama. Meanwhile she may have felt that she was just being honest. Was she brutal? Could that be subject to interpretation? I wonder. Does perceived negativity lie in the ear of the beholder or in the delivery. Or is it both? -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 7:44 AM"Does perceived negativity lie in the ear of the beholder or in the delivery. Or is it both?"
While there can certainly be cases in which one person wholly misinterprets another, utlimately we all share this responsibility when communicating. You have to have the same focus and discrimination when you are talking as when you are listening. In both cases, we're all responsible for making sure what was said was understood, regardless of which end of the statement you were on. -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:27 AMi have a difficult time when overly sensitive people require me
to coddle them for any length of time.
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 11:49 AMWild, I am a bit like you in that way.
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 9:55 AMJosh, I couldn't agree more. Well said.
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Re: when honest IS negative
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 3:52 AM<<Are you still upset about the way she said it or are you over that and perhaps giving her a pass because she obviously has a lot going on? >>
Nah - got over it pretty quickly after coming to the conclusion it was totally reasonable and simply reflects the flow and flux of life :)
<<Not to target you but I ask because I think this is the kind of thing where a lot of issues come up with folks>>>>
Totally think it is fair and reasonable to ask someone about a post they have made in EH.. and if I was not prepared to respond further - I should not have posted it..
<<Does perceived negativity lie in the ear of the beholder or in the delivery. Or is it both>>
(speaking generally) I think it is both - but the two critical factors being how fragile and/or vulnerable the listener is and the care the speaker shows, and also their awareness of the listeners vulnerability and emotional maturity.. but getting hurt is not always "emotional immaturity" - sometimes it simply being human and the feelings and thoughts which come along with that -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 12:41 AMperhaps key is communication here. It seems in many of the threads regardless the position of the speaker, nice or roughly truthful, reflects more the communication level between both parties, or in multi mixed situations-re this chat. Taking responsibility to communicate through confusing/complicated issues to clarify and ask questions seems to set intentions openly. People all think differently and it's up to us to say how we feel and ask how others feel. Sometimes one person values brutal truth. I know if I want an opinion, I'd rather a friend tells me being an ass, than to keep being one and be flattered. If I look terrible I'd rather someone tells me than seeing it posted online. With appearance depends on the situation, who is asking? Why? Also sometimes it is nice to be supportive of people. If honest is a veil to say something shitty than the intention is usually the truth. Someone just wants to be shitty to someone else, or if the intention is not clear and perhaps it is not to be cruel then asking the person or knowing their sense of humor, situation, feelings that day always helps. Interesting chat...keep it going -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:32 PMYa' know, if someone is truly an asshole, they either know it or they don't. Nothing I can do for a true asshole, but for one who isn't aware or is in denial......
I just saw a guy whom I worked with 15 years ago, who is a real pathological liar, and an extreme asshole.
A old friend was with him and called me over, then asked if I remembered this guy and I replied......
"I sure do remember this @$$hole. He dropped XXXX on my head twice and then claimed it was an accident. I sure do remember this *ucking lying @$$hole".
This guy immediately replied that the didn't remember doing it, and I replied that now he should consider himself as "reminded". I really wanted to take it outside as I found myself in a state of self-justified anger which is a dangerous state for me to be in but I realized they began heading for the door and I didn't want to continue the conversation either.
A sage friend told me that some folks need tough lovewake-up call to get through their self denial. This was my attempt at it.
I try to weigh every situation with what their experience is with the issue at hand.
I find my own serenity is directly proportionate to my acceptance to people, places, and things.
Most times I let people burn their own bridges unless I give a damn. -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 1:08 PMJust curious Cook. Would you have used such heavy handed words if you thought he could knock you cold on your ass?
Seems to me the reminder was what amounts to a verbal assault. Of course he denied it. Even if he were not a pathological lying piece of shit he would have denied it.
If the thought was taking it outside why didn't you just hit him? Did you lack the courage of your convictions? Or were you being dishonest and overly aggressive unwilling to follow through on what you escalated.
Sounds like both of you pussied out
JSin -
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 1:43 PMIf I thought he could knock me cold?....... Oh hell no. LOL ;-) I knew I could and I also knew he wouldn't do a damn thing about it. He's not small either, but is a talker. I was trying to provoke him but he wasn't biting. I was with a group of people where this would have been totally unacceptable behavior. Hell, my behavior was not right. I felt I needed to make an "effective point" to a lying bullshitter and I did. Simple.
The truth is that I am extremely anti-violence but, at times, have been provoked in to defending myself or my GF at the time. I'll never be the guy who takes the first punch. Most days I laugh at provocation. B)
U got some pretty radical hardware going on there mister. Ya know one of my buddies is a punk. Sir Andy. Starting to ramble.... shutting the fuck up.
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Re: when honest IS negative
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 1:21 PM"what about when you TRULY think someone is ugly? or evil, or an asshole, or anything like that"
For me it comes down to the realization that what I *think* amounts to nothing more than a judgment based on *my* perception. It may or may not be accurate but to me it seems to be true in that moment. I've learned over the course of my life to refrain from offering such judgements, especially if they are unsolicited. Serves no real purpose to do so as far as I can see. If asked, I make it clear that is my opinion of the situation or person and that is all.
For me it has nothing to do with being PC - it has more to do with understanding that my judgments have the natural human potential of being flawed.
