Hmmm, this thread is certainly touching a lot of nerves. It seems that we are dealing with labels based on our own perceptions of where the line between personal choice and enculturation separate.

I wonder why lumping cops together as 'pigs' is so upsetting when most people have no problem lumping all politicians together as crooks or scheisters; lawyers together as opportunists etc. People who join the force are not unaware of the label they will be taking on. I also think that what you feel about the profession growing up has a lot to do with personal background.

In my family: the black side and the rural white side, cops were considered to be assholes that like to abuse power. No one in my family would say that every cop is an asshole, but that was a group generalization based on the experience people have.

I think if you're a good cop, there would be no need to cite you on a violation and you would not be singled out as a pig, it would be a generalization about the group you have chosen to join, an indictment of the system, not the individual. I believe the personalized label comes about because the effects are personal to the victims.

I don't think calling an oppressive group a derogatory name is bigotry. Chris Tucker had a line in one of his movies: "My mama's ashamed to tell anyone I work for LAPD. She tells people I'm a drug dealer." It was funny because the LAPD are so infamous.

Interesting juxtaposition. You definitely reinforced Fifi's point, Anne. Do we balk at lumping racists and sexists together? No one I know.

Anne - I kind of meant that differently than you seem to have interpreted it! People ARE born women, black, brown, Gay and so on, they/we don't choose to become Gay or black. Police officers aren't born police officers and brought up as police officers or soldiers (barring the children of police officers and military brats), they're born into another culture than police or army culture and then choose to join one of these organizations because they're attracted to it for some reason (they like what it offers them in terms of money, power, options within the larger culture they were born into). This doesn't mean that the police and military cultures aren't condoned and encouraged by the larger culture or a powerful segment of the larger culture, of course. And, of course, racism and sexism are learned behaviors and their acceptance within the larger culture (or significant portions of the larger culture) makes their intensification within police and military culture less remarkable.

American culture isn't quite as coherent as the propaganda often portrays. America is a lot more of a patchwork quilt or broken mosaic with a lot of different cultures (and I'm talking less about immigrant cultures here than the differences between Southern culture and Eastern, or black, white and latino, or Christian Fundies and "New York intellectuals", etc).

hear hear

and well said, Margi

Although I'm not a perfect example of this because I have used the word "cops" before, many Canadians are taught that even this is a negative stereotype and portrays a lack of respect. We are encouraged from childhood to use the word "police". So "pigs" would be rather far outside my experience, for sure.

I'm not sure this has helped but we seem to have fewer problems with police brutality, corruption, etc. And when brutality does happen, as it did with the Taser death of Robert Dziekanski, we marched in the streets all across the country in the middle of one of the coldest days in winter. I took the train for two hours to participate in a large rally in Toronto to demand a public inquiry into the use of Tasers here.

Now the public inquiry is wrapping up the first phase of its work to detail specific procedures and policies for the use of Tasers. The second phase of the inquiry will deal with the conduct of the police officers in this specific case.

Margi wrote:
>"Here's what i have a problem with. Have you heard every single cop on the planet utter the word "citizen" as an epithet? This kind of broad generalization is so utterly absurd to me. There is no way in hell that every cop who thinks of the citizenry does it with negative vibes. This is the very stereotype i am trying to smash in my entire argument. It's way beyond an assumption to say you know what a whole group of people are collectively thinking. I totally agree with you that we've seen a huge number of cops bashing people's heads in at protests and so on, mistreating citizens in many contexts and misusing their power. But you are only noticing the ones who do that, and completely not noticing all the ones that don't do that. Jeez, i never thought i'd be defending cops but your assertions are way out of bounds, imo."<

I don't believe my assertions are out of line at all... I do not need 100% to make a general statement about a population. What that threshold should be is a large representative group. In general we have established that. The idea of a "good cop" is the exception that proves the rule. If that were not the case the "bad cop" would raise eyebrows. they don't because that is the normative state. Lets use this for an example. Pilots fly airplanes. So by your reasoning if I find a piliot that does not fly the general statement would then be untrue?

To the point of the either or proposition:
You stated:
"If one agrees that militaristic consciousness, oppression, and patriarchal thinking are some of the big picture causes of the police problems we've discussed, then one might see the use of epithets to describe an entire profession as perpetuation of those big picture problems. If one doesn't see those connections, one might not see it as a problem to use such epithets."

The breakdown of this is:
If you use the epithet then you perpetuate the known cause of militarism, oppression and patriarchy. If you do not see the root cause then you see no problem with the use of the epithet.

I would argue there are a great many grey areas within that. It is not an either or proposition.

The language used is absolutely to reinforce an us vs them mentality. It is the vernacular of revolution and a requisite to move forward through change. If everything is viewed as sunshine and rainbows and oh they really don't mean to be murderous oppressive torturers, then it will not change.

I do believe the alleged good cops are guilty by association. If they had anything resembling social duty they would work to clean up their force. So either they lack the fortitude and motivation to do so, or perhaps they are as mythical as the unicorn. Regardless they are guilty by failing to act to uphold the law they are sworn to... It seems the exception is if you have a uniform then we will lets ya slide.

Finally a note in terms of the use of words to bring about change... You might note that Marx used the term bourgeoisie, the Colonial Americans used the term Red Coats and Torys to describe their enemy and the group as whole they wished to overthrow. I suppose I could call the cops : Fascist Jack booted oppressors, constitutional defilers and oppressors of the common man. But hey it takes a lot to type and is not as memorable as simply calling them a bunch of corrupt piece of shit pigs.

JSin

Not sure what the right thing to do is in a sports stadium like that. I suspect the Security Guard either witnessed the belligerent drunk or received a complaint from someone. Then being unwilling or unable to deal with the situation they then called the police.

I don't like belligerent drunks when I attend a sporting event either but I'm not inclined to report it. If I was sitting near him I'd just move to another area if his behaviour interrupted my enjoyment of the ball game.

There was no excuse for the Tasing in this situation. Even if the police asked him to leave the stadium and he refused, I don't think this is reason for excessive use of force.

The reason i didn't respond to the video is that this is so common now, and it's not really the point of the thread. I think a lot of us who have been conversing on this thread have seen a zillion and one of these videos and read many descriptions of similar horrendous police behaviors (especially in tasing incidents and at protests). It's not that we don't care or aren't shocked every time we see them. It's just that we are already aware that this sort of thing is going on all the time these days. Those of us who have been discussing this topic and arguing against the use of the word "pigs" are not blind to the terrible offenses committed by a lot of police officers. It's just that we also know there are other cops out there who do not participate in such behaviors and do not philosophically align themselves with those who do, and we are mostly just discussing whether or not it is constructive to lump all police officers into the same negative category. i appreciate that you submitted the video because it might educate some folks who are reading this thread about the types of "bad" behaviors we have been referring to in our discussion. Not commenting doesn't mean we don't notice or don't care.