Just a rant.
The beautiful men I've met seem to have this self-perception that their mere presence is a gift to others that requires little effort on their part other than simply being there. This is the curse of being a beautiful man in our culture (powerful men experience a similar phenomenon)…they are rewarded for minimalist efforts in their personal dealings. People quite simply want to be near them and will put up with a lot, give them a lot, in order to hold that coveted status. I’ve seen it all many times before because I am a beautiful enough woman to attract these beautiful men.
This is also why I have been hesitant to date beautiful men in the past 6 years. They have the tendency to treat women (even the truly amazing one’s) as interchangeable and disposable without being consciously aware of it.
But, it's not the same for beautiful women. Not in this culture anyway. We’re perceived as arm candy, trophies, something to adorn one’s life with and the moment the shiny-ness factor wears off we’re traded in. That is, unless we happen to find ourselves a sweet and not-so-beautiful man that worships us and isn’t afraid to express his adoration and (hopefully) admiration. This is why I’ve tended to stick with ‘geeks’ as lovers. Beautiful women are not expected to be smart or funny or vulnerable and when we are, it’s to our detriment. We’re expected to look good and be made of Teflon. The moment we don’t look so good we must acquire other skills in order to remain valuable. The moment we’re no longer valuable is when the Teflon coating comes in handy.
As beautiful men age they become even more coveted, yet as beautiful women age they become more disposable (it seems to me anyway). Or perhaps we become furniture. Something that may need the occasional dusting off but otherwise is simply there to be of use.
feeling jaded and frustrated,
-K
The beautiful men I've met seem to have this self-perception that their mere presence is a gift to others that requires little effort on their part other than simply being there. This is the curse of being a beautiful man in our culture (powerful men experience a similar phenomenon)…they are rewarded for minimalist efforts in their personal dealings. People quite simply want to be near them and will put up with a lot, give them a lot, in order to hold that coveted status. I’ve seen it all many times before because I am a beautiful enough woman to attract these beautiful men.
This is also why I have been hesitant to date beautiful men in the past 6 years. They have the tendency to treat women (even the truly amazing one’s) as interchangeable and disposable without being consciously aware of it.
But, it's not the same for beautiful women. Not in this culture anyway. We’re perceived as arm candy, trophies, something to adorn one’s life with and the moment the shiny-ness factor wears off we’re traded in. That is, unless we happen to find ourselves a sweet and not-so-beautiful man that worships us and isn’t afraid to express his adoration and (hopefully) admiration. This is why I’ve tended to stick with ‘geeks’ as lovers. Beautiful women are not expected to be smart or funny or vulnerable and when we are, it’s to our detriment. We’re expected to look good and be made of Teflon. The moment we don’t look so good we must acquire other skills in order to remain valuable. The moment we’re no longer valuable is when the Teflon coating comes in handy.
As beautiful men age they become even more coveted, yet as beautiful women age they become more disposable (it seems to me anyway). Or perhaps we become furniture. Something that may need the occasional dusting off but otherwise is simply there to be of use.
feeling jaded and frustrated,
-K
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Montana
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 3:33 PMI understand where your frustration comes from. It's brave of you to even bring this up because it's often perceived to be conceit.
Most of the beautiful men I have known had no idea they were beautiful. I don't know if this enhanced it or not but it always seemed tragic.
Perceptions of beauty are heavy issues for women and I have t say the worst of it came out when I worked in corporate. How dare you be beautiful, smart, resourceful and likable! Most of the other women hated me, especially when it was time to pick someone for promotion.
Lucky for me, I always liked the quirky guys. The ones that have beauty only I see.
I don't know if I agree with everything you're saying as concrete reality but there is definitely a specific dynamic to attractiveness is a social system that expects you to manipulate others because of it. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 3:45 PMThanks quel. I don't necessarily believe that all beautiful men are fully aware of their beauty, but they can't help but absorb the preferential treatment they're given....which then leads to that sense of over-privilege. Beautiful women, on the other hand, are often fully aware of their beauty but still suffer from an anemic level of self-confidence. In fact, some of the MOST beautiful women I've ever known were the least self-confident. I suppose some of this may even speak back to wild's post about the GGW sub-culture. The more attractive a female is the more two dimensional value we place on her physical beauty...or something like that.
-K -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 3:52 PMoh absolutely. men never line up to be next to beautiful women. models don't skate through life on their good looks. & women certainly never trade in men when they tire of them. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 4:04 PM"models don't skate through life on their good looks"
silly man...of course they do. That was never even up for debate. However, there is an expiration date for beautiful women. Not so for beautiful men.
-K -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 4:12 PMreally? you get turned on by a beautiful 85-year-old man?
we all have expiration dates.
yes, womens' is earlier. yes, it's unfair. but we all have one.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 5:54 PMum, Paul Newman, Clint Eastwood, Robert Redford are still looking pretty damn good.. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 9:19 AMok, so there're exceptions to every rule.
what about 95 -year-old men? 105-year-old men?
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 6:10 PMum, Paul Newman, Clint Eastwood, Robert Redford are still looking pretty damn good..
~~~~~~~
l love you so much.
l've had a crush on Paul Newman for as long as l've known he was around. Rob too. There's also George Clooney and Harrison Ford.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 7:37 PM>> However, there is an expiration date for beautiful women <<
Sadly, in general this is true. I for one find great beauty in women of all ages, My grandmother is 86 and quite radiant and beautiful. Of course very different than she was when she was 30, but still beautiful.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 7:41 PMyeah, men get at least 25 more years than women before their
sell by date is up.. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 9:47 AMWA >> yeah, men get at least 25 more years than women before their sell by date is up.. <<
That just means they have 25 more years until they are more-or-less forced to grow up.
That is not necessarily an advantage.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 6:27 PMmodels don't skate through life on their good looks.
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Sure they do. Until they don't have their good looks anymore and realize that was their only marketable skill unless they like to beat up their personal assistants or get caught doing coke on someone's cellphone camera. l think a 'Where are they now?' show on supermodels would probably turn up some pretty sad stories.
l've had this 'curse of being beautiful' conversation several times, and quite recently. lf you are (by societal standards) unattractive, you deal with the burden of not having any choice about how you are viewed, and unfortunately, run into quite a few shitty dating circumstances as a result. But that doesn't mean it's all smooth sailing if you are goodlooking. As Apache and l pointed out in another thread, it's not uncommon to run across a man who is surprised that we are actually intelligent as well, and nothing sucks more than discovering that a guy you liked, by his very own statement, thought we were dumb in the first place. l know that over half of the men l am now friends with may or may not have ever spoken to me had l not been cute, and at least two of them knew who l was for a long time but didn't strike up a conversation because they were intimidated. l suppose a number of people think being intimidating is somehow a good quality, but it's not. And one man l dated in my early twenties told me that if he'd realized l actually had opinions about stuff he never would have asked me out. Yeah, he literally said that. Being goodlooking ain't all it's cracked up to be. Being unattractive sucks too. Either way, being belittled or otherwise brushed off because of your looks blows. l like the way l look; l'm confident about it. But it'd be nice if my brain stood out every so often, and because of my looks, l have to work twice as hard to prove my intelligence. That's just fucking weird. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 3:12 AMSo So glad I am ugly.
As an aside Leonard said this
Chelsea Hotel # 2
I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel,
you were talking so brave and so sweet,
giving me head on the unmade bed,
while the limousines wait in the street.
Those were the reasons and that was New York,
we were running for the money and the flesh.
And that was called love for the workers in song
probably still is for those of them left.
Ah but you got away, didn't you babe,
you just turned your back on the crowd,
you got away, I never once heard you say,
I need you, I don't need you,
I need you, I don't need you
and all of that jiving around.
I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel
you were famous, your heart was a legend.
You told me again you preferred handsome men
but for me you would make an exception.
And clenching your fist for the ones like us
who are oppressed by the figures of beauty,
you fixed yourself, you said, "Well never mind,
we are ugly but we have the music."
And then you got away, didn't you babe...
I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best,
I can't keep track of each fallen robin.
I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel,
that's all, I don't even think of you that often.
</end>
No Really I don't think of you often.
JSin
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 8:56 AMK >> This is also why I have been hesitant to date beautiful men in the past 6 years. They have the tendency to treat women (even the truly amazing one’s) as interchangeable and disposable without being consciously aware of it. <<
Aren’t all women truly amazing?
K >> as beautiful women age they become more disposable (it seems to me anyway). <<
Beautiful women don’t become more disposable as they age, they just lose whatever *advantages* they enjoyed from being beautiful. If they have been overly reliant on their looks to get by, then they are going to have some growing up to do when their looks fade. While that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, growing up is generally not pain free.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 3:15 PMOh, sister. Tell me about it.
I feel like I have a lot to say about this but I don't know where to begin.
In my personal experience, an added detriment to being a beautiful woman, besides the basics that you've covered in your post is this: People have different expectations of your physicality. People will look at my face and have a moment of categorizing me into "the beautiful people" or something. They will make a bunch of assumptions, but the one I'm having the most trouble with lately is that they expect me to care about my looks more than other facets of my life. They'll notice that I don't shave my legs & pits, or that I have bit of a belly and I'm not thin. Or that there is a hole in my shirt. Or that I'm not wearing any makeup. Or that I don't bother growing out my hair and making it beautiful for them. And there's a sense that I'm supposed to be maximizing my beauty to fulfill some sort of desire that *they* have.
Meanwhile, inside I'm screaming, "I'm an artist, an activist, a writer, a lover, a philosopher. Stop looking at me. Start seeing me."
I have no idea why I just shared something so personal but there you have it. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 5:17 PMMammoth >> Stop looking at me. Start seeing me. <<
I am sorry that you have felt unseen. That is no fun.
I don't think that has much to do with beauty, however.
As someone who was born with an already expired sell by date, I can say that being ugly is no guarantee of being seen either. ;-) -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 5:26 PMsaddha, the reason I included that in my comment was because in the particular type of scenario I was talking about, it relates directly to my beautiful face.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 6:25 PMI think it's about disengaging from the mainstream societal ideal of beauty completely, and defining beauty personally. I mean, the mainstream in general is just kind of silly, so it's not surprising that the version of beauty promoted within the mainstream would be youth-obsessed, misogynistic and exclusionary. Or that people who hop on the "I'm so beautiful. I'm a gift to all of you" train would be irritating and vapid. You can observe those dynamics but still not buy into them. If you reframe what you perceive as beautiful to your own individual taste, it really doesn't matter what anyone else says is or isn't beautiful.
To me, true beauty doesn't fade with age...it just deepens and evolves. I mean, Michelle Pfeiffer is 50 years old and has never looked better. But it definitely is an odd phenomenon when certain people have always gotten a lot of play for being beautiful. It does do something messed up to their personalities...in a way that they can say fairly mundane things, and they believe themselves to be so interesting and relevant...when in actuality, they're just getting attention because of their looks. Most celebrities fall into this category to me. They're a solipsistic yawnfest. I've always found it odd who gets labelled as a beauty by the mainstream and who doesn't...because some of the most beautiful people I know have never been billed as such and haven't gotten the recognition of their looks. I think it's just another way that mainstream values don't match up to my own. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 9:45 PM>>>I've always found it odd who gets labelled as a beauty by the mainstream and who doesn't
and yet, there are times when it all evens out. two celebrity females that immediately come to mind are sarah-jessica-parker and angelina-jolie (well, and barbra-streisand - but hell she even made a movie about it). both of these women are NOT beauties to my "eye" and probably never will be, but i have come to identify them as beautiful by their presentation and media-hype.
yes, you could say that im a misogynistic and exclusionary beauty purveyor - but i am definitely not youth-obsessed. oddly, i think that the two examples i gave are getting more beautiful as they age - like carol burnett, tina turner, or cher.
but yall are right overall - even tho id consider myself sexually bi/gay - i still find that my eye for beauty is much harsher when pointed at women than when pointed at men. however, this recent sets of generations have started to even out the playing field and men/boys are being objectified (particularly) in the gay-communities to pretty much the same degree as women have been for many many many generations... -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 4:31 PM"i still find that my eye for beauty is much harsher when pointed at women than when pointed at men."
I'm a person who bestows the term "beautiful" very infrequently whether male or female. I find that society in general uses the term too liberally...and a lot of times is talking more about a person's stylized image than real beauty. You can't buy beauty...but of course, that sentiment wouldn't fly very well in a capitalist society that wants everyone to believe he/she can. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 6:02 AMWillow - "a lot of times is talking more about a person's stylized image than real beauty. You can't buy beauty...but of course, that sentiment wouldn't fly very well in a capitalist society that wants everyone to believe he/she can."
Totally, most people see the signifiers (or symbols) of "beauty" - their style of packaging - before they look closely at someone's natural aesthetic. Though I'd point out that you *can* actually buy aesthetic beauty - or the currently popular version of it - if you have a very good plastic surgeon. There are limits - but if you have cash, not that many. Though in reality all one really needs to attract people who are looking for a handbag or arm candy are the signifiers of beauty and social success - which you can also buy.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 6:38 PMI'm a person who bestows the term "beautiful" very infrequently whether male or female. I find that society in general uses the term too liberally...and a lot of times is talking more about a person's stylized image than real beauty.
~~~~~~~~~~~
l'd be curious to know how and under what circumstances the word 'beautiful' was coined. l'm guessing, though, that it was meant to be a physical descriptive, not a character one, in which case, stylized image is precisely what's judged...not the depth of beauty you and many of the rest of us might see. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 8:02 AMali - regarding beauty and "stylized beauty" or signified beauty, I'd say there's a difference (to me at least). I guess for me it's the difference between natural and artificial beauty (though the vast majority of "natural" beauties look more beautiful with some grooming and adornment too...and most "natural" looks actually take some skill and artifice to create ;-) - or perhaps more accuately the difference between the raw material and the polished/sculpted object. Natural beauty is our genetic heritage, how symmetrical one's face is, the size of certain features, our body shape...all those things which we're hardwired to respond naturally. To me, artificial beauty is the social constructs, the accentuating and creating the illusion of certain naturally attractive features, display and the aura one gives off and so on. In some ways, I'm actually more of a fan of a well constructed beauty (to my taste obviously) than natural beauty, simply because of the intelligence, creativity and appreciation of aesthetics required to construct an aura of beauty that influences how people perceive them. Glamour, in its original sense, meant casting a spell over someone or an illusion - and glamorous beauty is still about weaving a spell and creating auras. Not that I don't enjoy and appreciate a naturally pretty or beautiful face too.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 6:34 PMand yet, there are times when it all evens out. two celebrity females that immediately come to mind are sarah-jessica-parker and angelina-jolie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SJP was voted the ugliest woman by some mens' magazine recently. You aren't the only one.
Ali,
who loooooooves Angelina and thinks she's beautiful but not because society told her to... -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 8:30 AMDid *anyone* EVER think SJP was some sort of Hollywood goddess or sex symbol? C'mon!!!! Not even women think she's beautiful, do they?
Now Angelina (who I also think is hot) is pretty much an extreme parody of fertile/nubile beauty and sexiness, much like Pamela Anderson (whom I also love, if only for being a cartoon and aware of it). -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 2:06 PMEven Angelina is nearing the end of her shelf life for the type of role you mentioned, "fertile/nubile beauty and sexiness". I saw her last night in 'Wanted' and those vivacious lips she once had now undulate from scene to scene depending upon when she'd had her last series of collagen injections. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 2:20 PMWTF Charles, she's 33.
and her lips have always been that way. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 2:30 PMYup, it's this type of criticism that women have to be subjected to all the time. I notice as well, that people seem to comment on a woman's weight and figure in public much more than they do of men's. Somehow, the way a woman looks is everyone's business.
I was once very sick from e. coli and couldn't eat for a week. When I went back to work, down to 105 lbs, everyone commented on how great I looked: customers, coworkers etc. "Really? Because I almost died last week!" was my reply. Even at the Dr's office, the nurse showed his own idea of what women should be like. When he weighed me at 105, i said "Oh, no..." and he replied :"Don't worry, your sandals add some weight." I was concerned that I was too thin and he thought I was concerned for weighing too much! -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 2:35 PMdamn
if that's the kind of reaction a woman of ~ 33 ~ gets
i better just order a wheelchair for my ancient 39 year old self...
*sigh*
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 4:12 PMSeemed to me there was a dramatic change in the size of her lips from scene to scene, and it caught my attention. No doubt Angelina is still a very attractive woman, but nearing her shelf life for the type of role she's been used to playing. It's sort of like picking out a peach at the market. Every once in a while you find the perfect peach - not too hard, not too ripe, the color and texture are perfect and it's as sweet and juicy as it can be. Sometimes at just the right time of year if you're lucky you'll even find one where the sugar has crystallized on the outside of the pit.
We all have that sweet spot in our development, our peak of power, when the energy of youth begins transforming itself into manhood and womanhood. And before you know it, its' gone - though certainly nothing to lose sleep over. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 4:19 PM>>>but nearing her shelf life for the type of role she's been used to playing<<<
and what roles are those, Charles?
and what roles is she nearing suitability for? -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 4:34 PMYOu know ,fuck that noise. A woman of 33 is no where near the end of any sort of shelf life. and I am kind of getting tired of everyone just accepting it as the way it is- women get this mysterious set of expiration dates that only come from the cultural bias against women who were no longer as fertile any more. Seriously, we got enough fertility, I don't think a woman's worth can honestly be judged on how often her ovaries work anymore.
So 20th century.
I just turned 38. I guess I should just go kill myself now cause I have a line or two under my eyes and my full lips are just a shade less full than they used to be at one time.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 5:20 PMI wouldn't do anything drastic just yet. I look at 38 as being a young woman. The fact is, I had coffee with a 96 year old this morning, and she's still as sharp as a tack.
I was referring to the entertainment industry, more specifically the movie business, and they keep their eyes open for very specific types of talent and genes. They look for stars, one in a millions. And over time they've been pretty consistent finding what they want. It is more the rule than the exception in that business, if a woman wants to extend their shelf life, she'll begin hacking herself up, and spend literally a fortune on cosmetic dentistry, skincare specialists, personal trainers and the like to keep that particular look, that flare. And many of them, unless they have some very fine-tuned talents or something else going for them, just fall off the radar. Frequently, that's the way it is in that business - they know what people are willing to pay for and they give it to them. It's a rough business (especially for women), and in many cases it's a question of whether you have the goods or you don't.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 7:19 PMWell, I guess she'll move on in her career. I've never really found her to be a particularly talented character actor - so, I don't know what that means for her. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Mon, June 30, 2008 - 8:10 PMOkay Charles, I get what you mean.
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 1:46 PMAngelina's not the best example of someone who's going to fall off the radar. Aside from the fact that she's still young, as long as she and Brad continue to add to their brood and contribute to global issues, they'll stay in the headlines, regardless of what acting work they're doing. Hollywood ain't even close to done with Angelina yet. l have a feeling that when Angelina tires of doing action movies, she'll move on to roles that demand more in terms of acting, and may end up surprising everyone. She already has a couple of acting awards under her belt.
And the lips are real. l know cuz l watched the True Hollywood Story. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 12:02 AMYeah, she is one that has something going for her, but that has little to do with talent, and demanding roles require talent. Maybe she'll rise to the challenge; I hope she does.
Of course her lips are real, but swelling up and deflating from scene to scene seems to indicate a little help from her friends, and that's OK with me - just caught me eye. -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 6:46 PM"Yeah, she is one that has something going for her, but that has little to do with talent, and demanding roles require talent."
Hmm. l thought she did an incredible job in Gia, and a damn good job in Girl, lnterrupted. But l also already pointed out that many of her roles don't require that kind of acting challenge, which makes sense when most assume she has no acting ability.
"Of course her lips are real, but swelling up and deflating from scene to scene seems to indicate a little help from her friends, and that's OK with me - just caught me eye."
Oh, come on. l saw the movie (after this conversation and your comments). l have no idea what you're talking about. l don't get it and l didn't see inflation happening. Are you just busy trying to make a point about actresses you don't like or approve of?
Ali,
who's not trying to start a fight about freakin actors and Hollywood, but still.... -
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Re: The dichotomy of being beautiful
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 7:40 PMI don't know if your post is enough for me to go ahead and watch the movie again, but maybe I should after reading what you wrote, as I'm curious to know if I'd still see what I thought I saw. I saw her in a quick clip on the news taken after she'd had her and Brad's twins, and I have to admit - those lips of her were popping out bigger than ever. It's not uncommon for film actresses to get collagen shots during the shooting of a film, and (as I said) there appeared to me some of that going on, but I guess it's remotely possible I may have been mistaken :-)
I didn't see either of the films you mentioned, and to a certain degree, I'm relying on longer-term memory, but if memory serves me correctly, I don't remember her holding down what I'd term roles that demanded a substantial degree of emotional depth - yet when I think about it, that might just not be who she is, and it's my own biases that are defining what I think talent or emotional depth really is. I'll have to think more about that.
That said, I still find her to be a very attractive woman. I think what I was trying to get at was that I've seen many female film stars sort of run into a stone wall at some point in their careers - a place where their natural beauty became less of a dominating factor in their careers. Maybe I was a little too judgmental concerning Angelina - I should only be so lucky.
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